For those who wish Dream Theater would release a less wankery album

This is just a question/thought that arose from the unpopular opinions thread. Would those of you would like Dream Theater to release an album with more simple song structures be into a record comprised entirely of songs like the one below?

"Viper King" was a "bonus track" on last year's Distance over Time. No doubt it was for fun, and to me it sounds like they are trying to channel Deep Purple. They still throw in some signature complexities, but they are all subtle as opposed to a grandiose structure unfolding over 10+ minutes.

Just curious.

I wouldn't want Dream Theater to stray from what makes them Dream Theater.

There's already plenty of bands that do simple songs. Not everyone has to like every band. Trying to cater to everyone makes the final product bland.

I loved them starting around the late 90's, early 00's,  up until about five years ago. Now even the old stuff I can't really listen to anymore. The singer bugs the hell outta me now, and the music got boring. When I first discovered them I was so blown away by them, but now just not my thing. If they released an album where the songs were more straight forward, I'd probably still not care for it, unless they got a new singer lol

Funny, I was just humming "Take the Time" before getting on the compie.

I see what you're saying, but I think it goes even beyond that. Dream Theater has written quite a few standard structure songs for each album, and if you think about it, Pull Me Under is no exception. Heck, it's ironically their one radio hit (hey, let's not forget Lie) and the one song casual fans and even non-fans alike think of first. It's a simple verse-pre chorus-verse 2 (slight alteration)-pre chorus-chorus-solo(s)-interlude-chorus-outro gig. Sure, it's long, but that's because it takes its time, breathes, allows air to circulate around it, make it alive. And what follows Pull Me Under on the album? A freaking power ballad with a runtime and structure as simple as Home Sweet Home. And the crazy thing is, for the most part that's what their songs are--I just don't think people realize it.

I'm super curious, of all the opinions (and they vary) of DT here on HoM, which ones belong to musicians. I understand James is an experienced drummer and Bassman plays, well, you know. I myself play guitar, and have no shame as, well, a disciple of John Petrucci (Praise Be). Hell, I even bought his Rock Discipline when it first came out--it was awesome bathroom reading, mind you. I also dove into the tabs for Images and Words, Awake, Season of Changes, and SFaM for some years as a teen, and the biggest thing I caught onto was at least 75% of their material is no more complex than how I described Pull Me Under above. Think of Falling Into Infinity, an album desperate for a radio hit, or Home on SfaM, a great song that I think everyone here would ADORE, I repeat ADORE, but suffers because of our initial reaction to its near-13-minute length--when really it could just be a 4 minute song minus some jam time and vamping. This is what they do--they take what would be an average-length song and pad it out to double or triple that.

My issue is that the padding has lost its quality over time due to the band wanting to take a commercial metal direction, as in the heavier the better (I've also said this before--the change in keyboardists is a big driving factor why their sound has become more vanilla--Rudess has been a stain on the band's creativity). From I&W to SDoIT, the goal was clear: a metal band transcending formula. Cool. But it was Train of Thought were, all of a sudden, let's just be metal as fuck. And yeah, it was, and sort of derivative too (I mean you have LaBrie serious imitating Dave Mustaine at one point), And they kind of stuck with that, ran with it, and ran it into the ground. I'll never forget my disappointment with Systematic Chaos--I declare that album the Spinal Tap, gentlemen, of their oeuvre, chuck full of boring, pandering, lifeless, heavy metal schlock.

So, yeah, it's wankery, but listen hard and one might notice what the wankery is contained in--a good song, one fit for the radio. They really are--okay, [i]were[i] gifted songwriters with a practical approach to movement and fluidity, calling on a host of sources from Yes to Mercyful Fate to Maiden to Angel to Boston to so forth so forth. Sadly, they became Working Joes, and routine settled in, perhaps metal fatigue, and their sole purpose anymore is to make happy the remaining fanbase that mysteriously embraces the band at their most mediocre.

For my money, the wankery used to have way more soul.

corplhicks wrote:

Think of Falling Into Infinity, an album desperate for a radio hit,

Falling Into Infinity would be the album to go to if you're looking for a less showy album, and I would actually rate it above than their more recent albums, which I would agree are to some extent music by numbers and lack the magic of their early days. It does have its flaws, and I think it would have been a better album if they'd been able to make it a double album with some of the tracks were left off had been included, but it's not the train wreck that some people make it out to be. And it's one of those cases where I wonder if it would have been better regarded if another band had released it without all the expectations based on previous albums i.e. it's not always judged on its own merits, but also in conjunction with what Dream Theater had done before (and later with what they would go on do).

And I would agree with you about Dream Theater having a lot of songs with standard structures. It's something they've done throughout their career, and while opinions may differ as to how well they've succeeded, they have tried to write songs with hooks in them. I've listened to other prog metal albums and I've come away struggling to remember a single song, whereas Dream Theater are still able to write some which stick, even if they're perhaps not doing it as well as they used to.

So while they're always going to have times when they show off just how good they are, I would disagree with people who say they're all about the technical side of things and not the songs, as I don't think the evidence bears that out. How good they are at writing songs may be up for debate, but they do make the attempt.

I mostly enjoy the first two Dream Theater albums. I can't keep up with the rest of their catalogue. Music is too complex for me.

Gilbert wrote:

Their Music is too complex for me.

So this is what I'm talking about. I truly don't think it is, especially compared to many a thrash band. For example:

The Mirror's main riff is one power chord. Most of the rest of the song is not much more.

Lie is a radio format song.

Metropolis, their most complex song in their entire catalog, is mostly in 4/4. The only flashy bits are in the instrumental section. As a song, it's pure candy for any headbanger.

Under a Glass Moon is only eye-crossing because of it's syncopation. The song is like a cricket in a frying pan. Once you catch on to how it pops, you get it. Reminds me of Extreme. Total funk with an ethereal touch, and my favorite Petrucci solo off that album.

Can you believe a wanker like me can play most of Erotomania on guitar? John really held back on that one, in fact I find most the band did, to deliver a mesmerizing instrumental (their first full!) that wouldn't fly over too many heads. It's one of their least pretentious tunes. The focus here was time signature dynamics.

Speaking of the Mind Beside Itself trilogy, Erotomania leads right into Voices and then The Silent Man. The former is undeniably catchy and lyrically esoteric all the way through, while Silent Man is truly weird as it sounds like something, I dunno, Collective Soul would do. It really is such a beautiful number.

And these are just the first two albums, not even mentioning Space Dye Vest. I would suggest giving Change of Seasons a couple spins, that one is a little dense. But definitely pick up Scenes from a Memory. While flawed, and the first moderate change in both production and songwriting, it really is a well-crafted concept album that works well as a whole. Listen through two or three times and you'll probably be hooked.

Trust me on this, guys. Dream Theater is a perfectly accessible band.

corplhicks wrote:

And these are just the first two albums,

The first two albums with James LaBrie. They had one before he joined...

Citanul wrote:

corplhicks wrote:

And these are just the first two albums,

The first two albums with James LaBrie.  They had one before he joined...

Yeah, sorry; bad habit of mine to disregard WDaDU. In my head it all started at I&W.

Wanna know something funny? As much as I claim to be some superfan of these guys, I've actually [barely] heard the debut. I think maybe because it was out of print for forever and I never really took the time with it. Pun so much intended.

I can confirm Dream Theater is very accessible. My wife likes them a lot and she doesn't like half the metal I listen to. Was happy to see them live too, twice. 

Chicks dig.

Lari wrote:

I can confirm Dream Theater is very accessible. My wife likes them a lot and she doesn't like half the metal I listen to. Was happy to see them live too, twice. 

Chicks dig.

Hey, we have something else in common: my wife, too, is a big DT fan. Her and I bonded BIG time when we first met over the band. Saw them live in Vegas together. But she's surprisingly not a big metal fan, nor prog for that matter.

I have no idea why Dream Theater is a chick magnet. Haven't figured that one out yet.

For those who'd like a less wankery, more thrashy DT, you might enjoy this:

https://armedark.bandcamp.com/releases

I have been a fan since Senior year of high school ('92) where I absolutely fell in love with DT. It was a time when I was bored with Glam and Thrash and wanted something more. I lapped up everything they did until Octavarium, and that's where the honeymoon sorted of ended. I have alwys bought on release day/week but have only dipped a toe rather than diving head first the last 10 years or so.

Lari wrote:

I can confirm Dream Theater is very accessible. My wife likes them a lot and she doesn't like half the metal I listen to. Was happy to see them live too, twice. 

Chicks dig.

I feel like people who say Dream Theater is too complex or "wankery" don't listen to much prog at all, because Dream Theater are pretty straight forward compared to most traditional prog bands, in my opinion.

Eyesore wrote:

Lari wrote:

I can confirm Dream Theater is very accessible. My wife likes them a lot and she doesn't like half the metal I listen to. Was happy to see them live too, twice. 

Chicks dig.

I feel like people who say Dream Theater is too complex or "wankery" don't listen to much prog at all, because Dream Theater are pretty straight forward compared to most traditional prog bands, in my opinion.

Agreed on both points.

Eyesore wrote:

I feel like people who say Dream Theater is too complex or "wankery" don't listen to much prog at all, because Dream Theater are pretty straight forward compared to most traditional prog bands, in my opinion.

It's wankery when their complicated sections don't actually sound any good at all and are just meant to show off something we've already heard them do .... a problem they have quite often.

I have never really felt that they were "showing off" but rather the music became too technical and seemed to go on too long. What made me realize this was seeing them in concert and how (because the complexity of the music dictates this) they were sedentary like an orchestra. I don't expect them to move about the stage like DLR in 1984 or wave arms wild and theatrical the way Dickinson does; but it just seemed so sterile and cold compared to most concerts I had seen.

Picked up Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence, yesterday, at my local record store.

Felt like giving the band another chance. Giving it a first spin as i type this message.

First song The Glass Prison has an old school Metallica vibe. Not bad at all.

Aside from Pull Me Under, I could never get into them. The music is too long and proggy. I also don’t like James LaBrie’s voice much.

Gilbert wrote:

Picked up Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence, yesterday, at my local record store.

Felt like giving the band another chance. Giving it a first spin as i type this message.

First song The Glass Prison has an old school Metallica vibe. Not bad at all.

I got Inner Turbulence when it was released, and I am still trying to digest it. I haven't felt the need to move on from that. Still the last DT album I bought. I did listen to the follow-up Train of Thought but opted not to buy it.

Troublezone wrote:

Aside from Pull Me Under, I could never get into them.

That's where I stand on them. I own Images And Words because of that song and that's pretty much all I need.

I recently had a discussion with a co-worker. I've discovered that my main gripe with Dream Theater isn't the instrumental wankery. It's the keyboards. I f**kin hate keyboards. Generally speaking, groups that have a dedicated keyboard player/songwriter in their ranks ain't my bag. I don't want "keyboard solos" in my music.

Looking over my vast collection of music, there are very few groups that I own that have a dedicated keyboard player. Of course there always exceptions, but overall, I just don't like synthy-sounding keyboards in my music.

And for clarification, I'm not talking about Hammond organs or good old-fashioned piano. Those are fine by me.

Did you forget about Falling Into Infinity?