Fake Live Albums

S.D. wrote:

In the Rush documentary Beyond The Lighted Stage Geddy discusses their earlier live releases.  He said that All The World's A Stage is completely live with no overdubs.  He then states that they thought it was a little rough so when it came to Exit...Stage Left they fixed some things with overdubs. But Geddy felt they went too far with it and ended up neutering the power of the live performance.  He said they learned from their mistakes with that one and going forward they would always record multiple nights so they could pick and choose songs if there were disastrous mistakes or technical errors.

I remember at the time of Exit Stage Left's release they had even spoken about the touch ups in the press. I remember reading Circus back then and Neal lamenting how he wished they were perfect.... Some one went out of tune or hit a wrong note....

I would prefer a raw recording for live stuff, board tapes that sorta thing.... but to each their own...

After Exit...Stage Left they decided to never do overdubs on live recordings again, thus they always record/film multiple nights so they have multiple performances to choose from when compiling an album/DVD. On the Clockwork Angels blu-ray almost the entire concert is from a single night, but a couple songs were pulled from other dates of the tour because the performances were better.

Here's an oddball. Way back in 1993, I saw this video:



This was back when Thrall:Demonsweatlive was released and I assumed this was the version from that EP.  Well, I was wrong and there's a totally different version of "Mother" live on that EP.  I always wanted the video live version because I thought it sounded really great.  Well, many years later I stumbled across this EP:



Low and behold the live version from the video was on it!  Happy day!  As I listened to it, it became obvious to me that this was actually the studio version with crowd noise added from another live performance of "Mother." Ha!  Evil Elvis totally fooled the young and naive version of me.  Oddly enough, this is now my favorite version of "Mother" as the crowd singing along really adds a cool element to the song.  I wonder why they just didn't call this something like "Mother (video edit)?"

Another odd thing about the Mother Live EP is it has a real live version of "How The Gods Kill" that's very good.

Eyesore wrote:

S.D. wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

These bands are doing a lot more than punching in snare drums.  I think in most cases they are punching in everything except maybe the drums.

"most cases".  Show us some proof if you're going to throw sweeping generalizations around.

I would say it's a case by case basis.  

He also said "I think" right before that.

And people wonder why ToB thinks this isn't the super-friendly forum many say it is.

Yuuup! Every board has a Dave Hester.

A very well known one (which I have 2 different copies of) is Metallica's Bay Area Thrashers: The Early Years.

I used to love, back in the day, The King Buscuit Flower hour -
What are all these bands now - chickens ? Perfectionist ?
I was happy that ICON put out some live recording -THAT sounded real -
Double Live Gonzo - Nugent - seemed very live !
AC DC - If You Want Blood - was real
Aerosmith " Bootleg " had that type vibe too -

Judas Priest - again - bought the 'live' CD for "Out In The Cold"
( Cause I hate the studio version, but know the song is good )
Saw Priest do a live version of it on youtube - yes !
sure enough, I hear Halford doing the background vocals -
while singing lead vocals -first song on CD -
I was pissed - and only paid 4 bucks for the CD - but still -

Double Live Gonzo had no overdubs. Nugent has said he is embarrassed by some of that album. I love it just the way it is, warts and all.

Aerosmith Live Bootleg is actually just a compilation of bootleg material. All Live. No overdubs.

I wish some live albums would have had part re-recorded. The Recon live album is terrible because the monitors were bad and the singer could not hear himself. Essential when you are doing all that falsetto stuff. But they released it like that and the vocals sound terrible.

Here's the question with live albums: do you want an EXACT "warts and all" representation of the tour or do you want something that gets the spirit of the live show across?

Personally, I haven't really formed an opinion because it seems to depend on the band. I grew up with Pink Floyd residing at the pinnacle of my listening pyramid and their live albums (not sure about Ummagumma's live disc, but the later stuff for sure) is total Frankenstein's monster territory. A given SONG may be comped from multiple nights and, even then, you're not sure there weren't overdubs on top of the excessive stitching together. That said, Pulse is a great live album with more emphasis placed on "album" than "live."

Contrast this with my youthful disappointment when I heard Nirvana's "Muddy Banks of the..." live album and didn't recognize the band I loved from the studio albums (if you ever wanted proof that they were massively massaged sonically in the studio, look no further). I may have a different view now, but what I loved about the band wasn't present in that live document.

At the same time, I'm really digging some recent King Crimson box sets that have tons of unedited live recordings presented "as is," but KC is a band that differed sets and performances night to night - closer to a jazz band than a rock or metal setup.

For my money, I'd venture to guess that some bands do better with something closer to a "live in studio" vibe on their live albums (i.e. they're better live if you're seeing them than just hearing them) and some are diverse and interesting enough that you could just hear them and get the full effect.

King Crimson is a different beast entirely, in fact quite a bit of the material on their studio albums was actually live. About half of the Starless & Bible Black album was recorded in concert, they just silenced the crowd mics. Crimson is an improvisational band, so in their case only listening to the studio albums really only gives you a tiny glimpse of what they are all about. Yes, they function most closer to a jazz group than a rock band in that regard.

When you have musicians of that caliber, there isn't much you need to worry about covering up on a live album.

S.D. wrote:

King Crimson is a different beast entirely, in fact quite a bit of the material on their studio albums was actually live.  About half of the Starless & Bible Black album was recorded in concert, they just silenced the crowd mics.

Should we start a new thread on "fake studio albums" for their benefit?

My long-gone and lamented copy of In the Court of King Crimson was pretty funny when it got to the chapter on that album if memory serves. They were really scrabbling for something to fill an album with.

Most of Crimson's compositions are born from on-stage improvisations. If you listen to live recordings of the Islands era band you'll hear bits and pieces that would later be used on Larks. One of the bonus tracks from the 40th edition of Islands is a live in the studio improvisation called "The Peacemaking Stint Unrolls", you'll hear a couple riffs that were later used in Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part 1 and Fracture.

Starless And Bible Black only has 2 tracks recorded in the studio (The Great Deceiver and Lament), the rest of the album was culled from live improvisations. KC were hauling around a multi-track recorder and taping every gig during that era, because you never know when inspiration will strike.

[quote="mikeinfla"]Never knew about the Paul DiAnno. Sounds live to me! To completely fake it is actually kind of cool! If you're gonna do overdubs anyway, just make the whole thing up!



That sounds awesome! They should release that without the fake crowd noise which is pretty obvious.

Witchfinder wrote:

As you are probably already aware, there are many live albums that are faked to various degrees - overdubs, re-recordings, completely faked in the studio, fake crowd noise etc..

Here's what I am aware of:

From your list: I don't care if these were worked on a bit the end result was worth it!

UFO - Strangers In The Night (My favorite record by one of my favorite bands)

Halford - Live Insurrection  (Excellent!)

...........................................................................................
Black Sabbath - Live Evil (Terrible live album, What happened?) just my opinion..

They were talking on "That Metal Show" about Thin Lizzy - Live and Dangerous had a lot of work done to it..I don't know about that, I never owned it.

Runicen wrote:

S.D. wrote:

King Crimson is a different beast entirely, in fact quite a bit of the material on their studio albums was actually live.  About half of the Starless & Bible Black album was recorded in concert, they just silenced the crowd mics.

Scary how good they were live!

Should we start a new thread on "fake studio albums" for their benefit?  

And add HSAS

S.D. wrote:

Most of Crimson's compositions are born from on-stage improvisations.  If you listen to live recordings of the Islands era band you'll hear bits and pieces that would later be used on Larks.  One of the bonus tracks from the 40th edition of Islands is a live in the studio improvisation called "The Peacemaking Stint Unrolls", you'll hear a couple riffs that were later used in Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part 1 and Fracture.  

Starless And Bible Black only has 2 tracks recorded in the studio (The Great Deceiver and Lament), the rest of the album was culled from live improvisations.  KC were hauling around a multi-track recorder and taping every gig during that era, because you never know when inspiration will strike.

I really dug that peek behind the curtain of "Peacemaking Stint." Islands is actually one of my favorite Crimson albums top to bottom. Are there any Collectors' Club releases of that lineup you can recommend? I used to have Ladies of the Road, but that second disc of an hour's worth of soloing over Schizoid Man wore thin pretty quick given how incomplete the first disc was. I'd love it if that lineup would get the treatment of the Larks' through Red lineups (I have all of those box sets, but have barely scratched the surface - it's a TON of music).

assault_attack wrote:

From your list: I don't care if these were worked on a bit the end result was worth it!

UFO - Strangers In The Night (My favorite record by one of my favorite bands)

Halford - Live Insurrection (Excellent!)

Maybe I'm betraying some hardcore naivety as a listener, but how much was Live Insurrection doctored, or was it a studio creation altogether?

That "Live Insurrection" is another release that is fake.

But is it totally faked - i.e. 100% studio creation - or is it just heavily doctored live stuff?

Runicen wrote:

S.D. wrote:

Most of Crimson's compositions are born from on-stage improvisations.  If you listen to live recordings of the Islands era band you'll hear bits and pieces that would later be used on Larks.  One of the bonus tracks from the 40th edition of Islands is a live in the studio improvisation called "The Peacemaking Stint Unrolls", you'll hear a couple riffs that were later used in Lark's Tongues In Aspic Part 1 and Fracture.  

Starless And Bible Black only has 2 tracks recorded in the studio (The Great Deceiver and Lament), the rest of the album was culled from live improvisations.  KC were hauling around a multi-track recorder and taping every gig during that era, because you never know when inspiration will strike.

I really dug that peek behind the curtain of "Peacemaking Stint."  Islands is actually one of my favorite Crimson albums top to bottom.  Are there any Collectors' Club releases of that lineup you can recommend?  I used to have Ladies of the Road, but that second disc of an hour's worth of soloing over Schizoid Man wore thin pretty quick given how incomplete the first disc was.  I'd love it if that lineup would get the treatment of the Larks' through Red lineups (I have all of those box sets, but have barely scratched the surface - it's a TON of music).

assault_attack wrote:

From your list: I don't care if these were worked on a bit the end result was worth it!

UFO - Strangers In The Night (My favorite record by one of my favorite bands)

Halford - Live Insurrection  (Excellent!)

Maybe I'm betraying some hardcore naivety as a listener, but how much was Live Insurrection doctored, or was it a studio creation altogether?

It was both doctored and faked for some songs.  For instance, the cover of "Blackout" with Rudy Schenker was not recorded live and they added in the crowd noise.  I seem to remember "The One You Love To Hate" was not recorded live either.  All that being said, I think it's an excellent album, and they had the good sense to pluck the best performances from various dates and put them all together.

At least they were pretty up-front about it. If you read the liner notes on Halford's Live Insurrection album, they mention that some songs were pieced together. They didn't try to hide that fact. I think 'The One You Love To Hate' with Bruce Dickenson was taken from a live rehearsal or something like that.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

At least they were pretty up-front about it. If you read the liner notes on Halford's Live Insurrection album, they mention that some songs were pieced together. They didn't try to hide that fact. I think 'The One You Love To Hate' with Bruce Dickenson was taken from a live rehearsal or something like that.

Exactly. They fully admitted it in the liner notes, which is cool by me.

I want "warts and all" when it comes to a live recording but I am not bothered by over dubs or touch ups as it still obviously sounds different from the studio version. What does bother me is when it's a live greatest hits or a pieced together from different shows/ nights. A live performance is a moment in time never to be duplicated exactly ever again. That's the biggest draw for me besides the crowd noise and interactions/ banter from the stage.

I like both kinds of live albums we've talked about here. A bad quality live album with bad mics, lost channels, feedback, but with missed notes and improvisation and all kinds of randomness is awesome to hear for a fan. It's as if you were there at the concert! I mean, you don't pay attention 100% of the time. Sometimes you're buying beer, or someone near your yells something, or you're standing on the bad side of the audio system or anything. You never get a perfect soundscape anyway. And especially if you know the album version by heart, it's so refreshing to hear a live rendition which sometimes can be like an almost new arrangement of the same song.

However, the studio doctored one often sounds so good it beats the actual album version. I love a great "live" recording. It's a win-win. If you want it to sound more realistic, then blast it out with a crappy system and play it so loud your system starts to break up the sound, and drink enough beer to get to the atmostphere. Most people play their music on shit setups anyway, so a touched-up live album will still sound worse than the actual live performance.

An audio recording was originally supposed to provide an authentic replication of an artist's live musical performance. Nowadays we listen to music where every instrument is recorded separately in different rooms, and all of them after a dozen takes. A doctored up live album really is a compromise between both worlds. And it can be amazing!

I bought Girlschool - live - King Biscuit - Nashville -
They were opening for Aerosmith -
and they let Girlsscholl use their set-up ( amps ) for this show.
It rocks - from start to finish - very real show

Type O Negative's The Origin of Feces is completely doctored.

I think they redid Mustaine's vocals on Rust In Peace Live