Suffocation...Thoughts on this video...

Ooookay, I'm gonna fire up some microwave popcorn. I sense a Chinese firedrill on the horizon.

Vexer6 wrote:

No it's not, comparing RAPE to digital piracy is disgusting and makes it very hard to take you seriously.

Plus Icon aren't around anymore, so even if did buy the CD, they wouldn't get any money from it anyways, so what sense does it make to go without it in that instance?

Take me seriously or not. If only you took the livelihood of artists as seriously as you do rape, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Do you know the guys in Icon personally? How do you have insight to their royalty agreement? Alvin Lee died a few days ago...does that mean his catalog is fair game?

SpectreFate wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

No it's not, comparing RAPE to digital piracy is disgusting and makes it very hard to take you seriously.

Plus Icon aren't around anymore, so even if did buy the CD, they wouldn't get any money from it anyways, so what sense does it make to go without it in that instance?

Take me seriously or not. If only you took the livelihood of artists as seriously as you do rape, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Do you know the guys in Icon personally? How do you have insight to their royalty agreement? Alvin Lee died a few days ago...does that mean his catalog is fair game?

You were basically trying to use an emotional argument to make you're point, it was a very offensive thing to say, and it really did absolutely nothing to prove your point.

Also, if I bought a copy of that album of Ebay and Amazon, it would be a "used" copy, hence the band wouldn't get any of the money, it would be no different from downloading it except for paying 50 bucks, which would go to the seller and not the artist.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

I've also heard the argument that because I buy 95% of my cds used from second parties, I'm essentially stealing from the artists too.

At least with buying "used", every copy in the used bin was initially purchased by somebody legal. Not the case with downloading.

I am not sure of the validity of the story, but I've heard that used record shops paid a "license" fee similar to what club owners pay so bands can play cover tunes ?

Quote :

the site tells you that the songs you download are for private listening ONLY and not to be uploaded elsewhere

Shouldn't that statement alone be a red flag that they are doing something shady? That same sort of "blanket statement" was tried by other torrent sites and look where that got them.

James B. wrote:

I am not sure of the validity of the story, but I've heard that used record shops paid a "license" fee similar to what club owners pay so bands can play cover tunes ?

Not the ones I've frequented.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Shouldn't that statement alone be a red flag that they are doing something shady? That same sort of "blanket statement" was tried by other torrent sites and look where that got them.

Kinda like when download blog-spot sites have a header at the top of their front page saying the songs are for "testing" or 'sampling' only and they encourage you to 'buy the album if you like what you hear."

...yeah, I wonder how often THAT happens.

Vexer6 wrote:

You were basically trying to use an emotional argument to make you're point, it was a very offensive thing to say, and it really did absolutely nothing to prove your point.

I think you're being too emotional about it as a way to avoid the discussion.

Let me see if I get your viewpoint straight. Musicians don't make money from CD sales, especially if they are not an active band so why should you care and you're still going to download illegally if you feel like it and you see nothing wrong with it.

Is that about right?

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Quote :

the site tells you that the songs you download are for private listening ONLY and not to be uploaded elsewhere

Shouldn't that statement alone be a red flag that they are doing something shady? That same sort of "blanket statement" was tried by other torrent sites and look where that got them.

Well I don't go on torrent sites, so that didn't sound all that fishy to me, and like I said, people seem to be divided on whether the site is illegal or not, it isn't illegal to pay less then 99 cents for music in the U.S.

I think the war against torrent sites is ridiculous(I use streaming sites myself), have you heard about something called the Six Strikes law? It's an act by all the Major ISPs where they give you warnings if they detect you downloading form BitTorrent and the like and give you punishments if you do it x amount of times(like blocking access to ppopular sites and throttling bandwidth), but it's been less then a month since it launched and already it's proven to be very flawed and unreliable, first off it flagged PC game mods as "illegal downloads", then it actually flagged sites that were offering LEGAL content like HBO.com, plus it's very easy to avoid detection anyways if you get a VPN, and the CAS(Copyright Alert System) dosen't detect cyberlocker sites. Oh yeah, and if you want to appeal against a "warning" you get from SS, you have to pay 35$ just to contest it, which seems blatantly illegal in itself.

SpectreFate wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

You were basically trying to use an emotional argument to make you're point, it was a very offensive thing to say, and it really did absolutely nothing to prove your point.

I think you're being too emotional about it as a way to avoid the discussion.

Let me see if I get your viewpoint straight. Musicians don't make money from CD sales, especially if they are not an active band so why should you care and you're still going to download illegally if you feel like it and you see nothing wrong with it.

Is that about right?

Maybe, maybe not

I think you could've made a more effective argument if you didn't bring rape into the discussion.

In regards to Icon.....That album mentioned, "A More Perfect Union" was only available thru the band and not a commerciail release. So in that case, downloading it is pretty much stealing from the band. A buddy of mine saw them at Rocklahoma a few years ago and got me a copy. They were selling it then and I suppose if somebody spent a lil more time looking for legal means to obtain music than steal. They might be fortunate and discover there are other means. I know, taking a couple of hours (maybe) and do a lil research, send an email, wait a day or two (maybe more) and then (MAYBE) get a place to send a few bucks via PayPal and in another few days a package arrives in the mail box or on the front porch.....Ta da.....there it is there. But.....who has the time to do all that....it is so much easier to type something in a search engine, or click somethin in the ol' "favorites" and do some browzing........the excitiement is so unbearable......they have it and there it goes with a click....to the hard drive....no waiitng.....no cost,,,and nobody is hurt by it. Strange how the word/term "available" (much less the prefix non before it) have varied meanings to people. Seems since the invent of both computer and internet have some how changed the actual definitions of things by merely adding the "context" of free to equation.

One more thing......

I saw this band in Sacramento right before I moved out of state. They put out an independent album, got signed and put out a major label release (out-of-print), got dumped, disappeared for a decade and a half, and then put out a few available by band only releases.

Folks via Ebay, Amazon, ect. had copies of the very first indie release for a small fortune and the out of print major label release for a lil bit less.

After the gig, I bought the current cd, a t shirt and conversed with a band member about the outrageous prices for the "back in the day" stuff. He asked me for my address and in a few weeks. I got a couple of CDR/DVDR's in the mail. The first indie release, the out of print major label release, and a DVD of various concert footage throughout the years.

The moral of the story.....those out of print or stuff by defunct bands. Try to contact band members and offer them "something" for their music. If the music is all that matters, does it matter if it comes on a blank home recorded cd ? They created it and they should at least be given a chance to reap some benefit from it, even twenty or so years later or whatever.

Might take a lil effort and maybe not even work out. At least somebody can try that avenue instaed of whining about a 50 dollar price on Ebay.

Quote :

but it's been less then a month since it launched and already it's proven to be very flawed and unreliable

Eh, they're just working out the kinks. Nothing is perfect right out of the box. It'll get better.

It is however, unfortunate. Noone is ever going to stop illegal downloading at this point short of pulling the giant plug of the World Wide Web. Pandora's box has already been blown wide open and the minute someone comes up with a solution to reign it in, a minute after that, someone else has figured a way around it.

James B. wrote:

In regards to Icon.....That album mentioned, "A More Perfect Union" was only available thru the band and not a commerciail release. So in that case, downloading it is pretty much stealing from the band. A buddy of mine saw them at Rocklahoma a few years ago and got me a copy. They were selling it then and I suppose if somebody spent a lil more time looking for legal means to obtain music than steal. They might be fortunate and discover there are other means. I know, taking a couple of hours (maybe) and do a lil research, send an email, wait a day or two (maybe more) and then (MAYBE) get a place to send a few bucks via PayPal and in another few days a package arrives in the mail box or on the front porch.....Ta da.....there it is there. But.....who has the time to do all that....it is so much easier to type something in a search engine, or click somethin in the ol' "favorites" and do some browzing........the excitiement is so unbearable......they have it and there it goes with a click....to the hard drive....no waiitng.....no cost,,,and nobody is hurt by it. Strange how the word/term "available" (much less the prefix non before it) have varied meanings to people. Seems since the invent of both computer and internet have some how changed the actual definitions of things by merely adding the "context" of free to equation.

Well that's great for you, but not everybody has the opportunity to go to concerts like that, so it's not really a viable option. I did do some research at the time I was looking for the album, but I wasn't able to find it anywhere other then Ebay/Amazon or contact the band, if I could've gotten it for a reasonable price I would have, but it just wasn't there.

What about listening to music on Youtube? Does anyone here consider that illegal downloading even with Fair Use?

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Quote :

but it's been less then a month since it launched and already it's proven to be very flawed and unreliable

Eh, they're just working out the kinks. Nothing is perfect right out of the box. It'll get better.

It is however, unfortunate. Noone is ever going to stop illegal downloading at this point short of pulling the giant plug of the World Wide Web. Pandora's box has already been blown wide open and the minute someone comes up with a solution to reign it in, a minute after that, someone else has figured a way around it.

Yeah somehow I don't think Six Strikes is going to last past the end of the year, it's only a matter of time before they get hit with a ton of lawsuits and have to pull the plug.

In case anybody is wondering

Rape does have other definitions aside from the context of sexual abuse.

One can use the internet to look it up...and you can download it for free

James B. wrote:

In case anybody is wondering

Rape does have other definitions aside from the context of sexual abuse.

One can use the internet to look it up...and you can download it for free

But he used it in the context of sexual abuse.

Anyone here heard of TVTropes?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DigitalPiracyIsEvil

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DigitalPiracyIsOkay


Someone else who encourages downloading, none other then Bruce Dickinson.

Quote :

What about listening to music on Youtube? Does anyone here consider that illegal downloading even with Fair Use?

Do you mean using Youtube to listen to music?

I say listen all you want. The best quality you'll get from Youtube is 64kbps.

When you download, that's where the problems start.

Vexer6 wrote:

Someone else who encourages downloading, none other then Bruce Dickinson.

Did you miss this part of his quote?

Quote :

as long as you buy the album

Vexer6 wrote:

James B. wrote:

In regards to Icon.....That album mentioned, "A More Perfect Union" was only available thru the band and not a commerciail release. So in that case, downloading it is pretty much stealing from the band. A buddy of mine saw them at Rocklahoma a few years ago and got me a copy. They were selling it then and I suppose if somebody spent a lil more time looking for legal means to obtain music than steal. They might be fortunate and discover there are other means. I know, taking a couple of hours (maybe) and do a lil research, send an email, wait a day or two (maybe more) and then (MAYBE) get a place to send a few bucks via PayPal and in another few days a package arrives in the mail box or on the front porch.....Ta da.....there it is there. But.....who has the time to do all that....it is so much easier to type something in a search engine, or click somethin in the ol' "favorites" and do some browzing........the excitiement is so unbearable......they have it and there it goes with a click....to the hard drive....no waiitng.....no cost,,,and nobody is hurt by it. Strange how the word/term "available" (much less the prefix non before it) have varied meanings to people. Seems since the invent of both computer and internet have some how changed the actual definitions of things by merely adding the "context" of free to equation.

Well that's great for you, but not everybody has the opportunity to go to concerts like that, so it's not really a viable option. I did do some research at the time I was looking for the album, but I wasn't able to find it anywhere other then Ebay/Amazon or contact the band, if I could've gotten it for a reasonable price I would have, but it just wasn't there.

I know it's not always a viable solution. If folks would "just" try to contact people from those bands and give them an oppurtunity to benefit. Guess it's too dificult to try, I suppose ?

Quote :

What about listening to music on Youtube? Does anyone here consider that illegal downloading even with Fair Use?

Usually, if content on that site isn't put up via proper means. It gets shu down for copyright infringement. Go to the VolBeat thread and you'll see an example of that. I don't watch much concert footage from that site due to "I really dig watching crappy cellphone footage" (sarcasm intended) and when I do go to check out a new song by a particular band. I purposely look for "official video" tagged to it. That usually means that the people who own the content are kewl with it being there. No hassles and I don't have to justify my personal belief system for the sake of listening to something.

James B. wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

James B. wrote:

In regards to Icon.....That album mentioned, "A More Perfect Union" was only available thru the band and not a commerciail release. So in that case, downloading it is pretty much stealing from the band. A buddy of mine saw them at Rocklahoma a few years ago and got me a copy. They were selling it then and I suppose if somebody spent a lil more time looking for legal means to obtain music than steal. They might be fortunate and discover there are other means. I know, taking a couple of hours (maybe) and do a lil research, send an email, wait a day or two (maybe more) and then (MAYBE) get a place to send a few bucks via PayPal and in another few days a package arrives in the mail box or on the front porch.....Ta da.....there it is there. But.....who has the time to do all that....it is so much easier to type something in a search engine, or click somethin in the ol' "favorites" and do some browzing........the excitiement is so unbearable......they have it and there it goes with a click....to the hard drive....no waiitng.....no cost,,,and nobody is hurt by it. Strange how the word/term "available" (much less the prefix non before it) have varied meanings to people. Seems since the invent of both computer and internet have some how changed the actual definitions of things by merely adding the "context" of free to equation.

Well that's great for you, but not everybody has the opportunity to go to concerts like that, so it's not really a viable option. I did do some research at the time I was looking for the album, but I wasn't able to find it anywhere other then Ebay/Amazon or contact the band, if I could've gotten it for a reasonable price I would have, but it just wasn't there.

I know it's not always a viable solution. If folks would "just" try to contact people from those bands and give them an oppurtunity to benefit. Guess it's too dificult to try, I suppose ?

Quote :

What about listening to music on Youtube? Does anyone here consider that illegal downloading even with Fair Use?

Usually, if content on that site isn't put up via proper means. It gets shu down for copyright infringement. Go to the VolBeat thread and you'll see an example of that. I don't watch much concert footage from that site due to "I really dig watching crappy cellphone footage" (sarcasm intended) and when I do go to check out a new song by a particular band. I purposely look for "official video" tagged to it. That usually means that the people who own the content are kewl with it being there. No hassles and I don't have to justify my personal belief system for the sake of listening to something.

I did try that avenue but didn't get very far. Then I found out about MP3va, and since you actually paid for songs, I figured it wasn't the same thing as downloading the album off a filesharing service or something like that. So far nobody has really found a definitive answer as to whether that site is "illegal" or not, otherwise they would've been long gone by now.

Do you consider claiming "Fair Use" to not be "proper means"? Those copyright infringement warnings you see on Youtube videos get really out of hand, whole fanmade videos getting taken down just because they use part of a song for a few seconds seems pretty execessive to me.

SpectreFate wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

Someone else who encourages downloading, none other then Bruce Dickinson.

Did you miss this part of his quote?

Quote :

as long as you buy the album

No I didn't, I have bought albums from Iron Maiden in the past.

Quote :

So far nobody has really found a definitive answer as to whether that site is "illegal" or not, otherwise they would've been long gone by now.

What does your gut tell you about their legality?

SpectreFate wrote:

Quote :

So far nobody has really found a definitive answer as to whether that site is "illegal" or not, otherwise they would've been long gone by now.

What does your gut tell you about their legality?

My "gut" told me that as long as I was actually paying for the songs, it was legal and not at all the same thing as Kazaa and the like, plenty of other people seem to agree with me on that. Given that the site has been around since 2007, you'd think that if they were illegal, then they would've been shut down by now.