My beef with (some) Christian Metal.

Troublezone wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

I don't really care what a Christian band chooses to write about... I'm more turned off when they blatantly steal a secular band's style and sound.


Whitecross / Ratt

Saint / Judas Priest

Oh you mean like...

Led Zeppelin / Kingdom Come

AC/DC / Rhino Bucket

Judas Priest / Primal Fear

Aerosmith / Guns n Roses

AC/DC / Airbourne

I can remember when magazines back in the 70's were calling Aerosmith a Rolling Stones clone.

etc. etc. etc.

The obvious influence in a band's sound is most certainly not something that is distinct to Christian bands.

Point taken... but i think that christian metal bands have not tried hard enough to be original besides Vengeance Rising's (blues thrash) and TQT's (medical metal).

That tends to be the problem with Christian rock in general.

Angelcake Adonisus Fox wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Troublezone wrote:

I don't really care what a Christian band chooses to write about... I'm more turned off when they blatantly steal a secular band's style and sound.


Whitecross / Ratt

Saint / Judas Priest

Oh you mean like...

Led Zeppelin / Kingdom Come

AC/DC / Rhino Bucket

Judas Priest / Primal Fear

Aerosmith / Guns n Roses

AC/DC / Airbourne

I can remember when magazines back in the 70's were calling Aerosmith a Rolling Stones clone.

etc. etc. etc.

The obvious influence in a band's sound is most certainly not something that is distinct to Christian bands.

Point taken... but i think that christian metal bands have not tried hard enough to be original besides Vengeance Rising's (blues thrash) and TQT's (medical metal).

That tends to be the problem with Christian rock in general.

I disagree. Every band has their influences, some are more obvious than others. Sure, there are those bands that purposely tried to have a similar sound to someone else. Obviously X-Sinner were influenced by AC/DC and Def Leppard. Whitecross early on were oft compared to Ratt. Saint to Judas Priest, etc. So what? There are just as many bands whose influences weren't so direct.

Who exactly did Extol sound like a clone of? Were Mortification in 1989 and exact rip-off of someone? How about Believer? Vengeance Rising were a mixture of Venom, Slayer and a rabid dog, but never a clone of any one band. How about Holy Soldier? One Bad Pig? Saviour Machine? Biogenesis? Precious Death? etc.

Then there are those "clone" comparisons I just flat out disagree with. Sacred Warrior were often called a Queensryche clone. Hardly. Similar melodic metal style? Sure, but never a clone. Same with Haven. American power metal? Absolutely. A Queensryche clone? Never was!

I can't speak for other bands, but despite people comparing Ultimatum to Exodus and Overkill, we were never, ever a band that intentionally tried to sound like either of those bands. Were they an influence on us? Probably more so now than they were in the early 90's when I was only listening to Christian metal.

Like I already stated, there are many bands in every scene that purposely wear their influence on their sleeve. It's not something distinct to the Christian scene and I wouldn't call it a problem. IT is what it is. If a band wants to have a similar style to AC/DC or Judas Priest, so be it. No one seems to complain when a jazz artist plays jazz, but when a metal band sounds like another metal band, suddenly it's a problem?

^----- agreed with ult.

In my younger days I always bought into the notion that the Christian metal groups were just cloning the secular bands. I missed out on a lot of great stuff (Believer in particular) that luckily I was eventually able to discover.

In Europe we have no White Metal/Christian Metal Scene, there are a few christian bands but nothing like you have in US.
About the cloning of Metal bands. I`ve read more then once people claiming that the christian momevent have created bands that sounds similar to ordinary bands, so christian youth won`t have to listen to evil secular bands.
I have no idea if there is any truth in this. But if there is, that`s a different thing than being inspired by other bands...

Olafsto wrote:

In Europe we have no White Metal/Christian Metal Scene, there are a few christian bands but nothing like you have in US.
About the cloning of Metal bands. I`ve read more then once people claiming that the christian momevent have created bands that sounds similar to ordinary bands, so christian youth won`t have to listen to evil secular bands.
I have no idea if there is any truth in this. But if there is, that`s a different thing than being inspired by other bands...

I've only ever met one guy from a Christian band that ever said he was trying to be "the Christian alternative" for another band. That guy was David Benson and he was advertising himself as the Christian Ozzy. I've met hundreds of Christian artists over the years and have been in bands with many as well and never had any others say they were trying to be an alternative of some secular band. So, that is the exception moreso than the rule.

ultmetal wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

In Europe we have no White Metal/Christian Metal Scene, there are a few christian bands but nothing like you have in US.
About the cloning of Metal bands. I`ve read more then once people claiming that the christian momevent have created bands that sounds similar to ordinary bands, so christian youth won`t have to listen to evil secular bands.
I have no idea if there is any truth in this. But if there is, that`s a different thing than being inspired by other bands...

I've only ever met one guy from a Christian band that ever said he was trying to be "the Christian alternative" for another band. That guy was David Benson and he was advertising himself as the Christian Ozzy. I've met hundreds of Christian artists over the years and have been in bands with many as well and never had any others say they were trying to be an alternative of some secular band. So, that is the exception moreso than the rule.

Never heard of David Benson, but a Christian Ozzy sounds hilarious!
I`m sure you are rigth about the others

I am not a fan of most Chrisitian metal, but I have not heard alot of it.

I liked Stryper and I like Barren Cross but honestly only tried them out because Fat Freddy recommended them to me.

When I was a young lad, I had a youth minister who recommended to me Petra and the Rez Band and I hated them so much I ran home and clutched my Venom albums.

manny wrote:

I like Barren Cross but honestly only tried them out because Fat Freddy recommended them to me.

(Blushes at the thought that my opinion is so influential on Manny)

Quote :

I`ve read more then once people claiming that the christian momevent have created bands that sounds similar to ordinary bands, so christian youth won`t have to listen to evil secular bands.

I could see that happening. Maybe not the band members themselves directly, but management or record labels looking for "that Judas Priest sound without all the devil-worship stuff". Sounds feasible to me.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Quote :

I`ve read more then once people claiming that the christian momevent have created bands that sounds similar to ordinary bands, so christian youth won`t have to listen to evil secular bands.

I could see that happening. Maybe not the band members themselves directly, but management or record labels looking for "that Judas Priest sound without all the devil-worship stuff". Sounds feasible to me.

I think a lot of 'this band sounds like band X' came from people in churches/youth pastors/magazines who were looking to turn kids on to the music. I remember the Phantom Tollbooth used to have that 'if you like X band you will like Y Christian band'

If a band wants to expouse their political views (wheather I agree with it or not) then they have every right to do so. If it bothers me enough, I just won't listen. I would prefer if all aritsts took Alice Cooper's view on this, and kept politics out of it but if there are going to be countless metal bands with a liberal message, there ought to be at least some conservative messages to balance it out. There's room for all of us in this great world of rock.

Quote :

I can't speak for other bands, but despite people comparing Ultimatum to Exodus and Overkill, we were never, ever a band that intentionally tried to sound like either of those bands.

I totally see the similarities between your band and those mentioned. But i would say you're closer to Exodus than Overkill.

jstate wrote:

In my younger days I always bought into the notion that the Christian metal groups were just cloning the secular bands. I missed out on a lot of great stuff (Believer in particular) that luckily I was eventually able to discover.

x2

Angelcake Adonisus Fox wrote:

bassman wrote:

Angelcake Adonisus Fox wrote:

nevermore wrote:

exact33 wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

There should be a law against mixing Metal and right wing conservative christianity .

and maybe perhaps a similar one against metal and the the ultra-liberal godless left?

It confounds me that bands that preach that god is dead/never existed/conservatives are evil are lauded for exercising the freedom to say what they think but when a Christian band says what they believe politically people object? We have been through thread after thread about metal and any attempt to say metal should be only this or that way limits the genre. Let there be an open competition for ideas - an ideal many libs give lip service to but don't practice what they preach.

Well said!

I'd mostly agree. However, in my view, when you bring Christ into it that changes the rules a little. You're no longer simply talking about secular issues, you're claiming to speak for Jesus.
That is not something you should take likely.

So you have to be serious if you are a christian band claiming to speak for Christ, but bands that follow Satan can joke around about evil stuff and not be held responsible for stupid things they might say or do? That is a ridiculous double standard, not to mention that I dont know any band claiming to speak directly for God, they are just expressing personal beliefs and life experience.

Only if you think your average 'satanic' band actually believes anything they actually expouse. Or that an actual 'satanic' band actually believes in Satan in the first place.

I know the vast majority of so-called satanic bands are just using it as a gimmick. Oh, look how evil we are, thus the phrase " joke around about evil stuff ". I still think that regardless of what side of the political or religious fence you are on, everyone is entitled to an opinion that might as well be expressed through music.

I don't mind hearing that so and so sounds like another band christian or not, it gives me a reference point. Amazon seems to like it too though I question if because I bought Gin Blossoms i'm going to like Lady Ga Ga.

TheNazgul wrote:

I don't mind hearing that so and so sounds like another band christian or not, it gives me a reference point. Amazon seems to like it too though I question if because I bought Gin Blossoms i'm going to like Lady Ga Ga.

well duh!!

Joe wrote:

I have to say that my biggest beef is that there is a genre called "Christian" metal. What does that really mean? If it is just based on lyrical content, then we should have "political" metal or "sci-fi" metal or whatever other theme you can think of. I honestly think this whole term was created to try and downgrade the quality of the music to all the "tr00 metalheadz"

Hear, hear.

As I've said many a time before around this forum (sing it with me if you know the words, kids!): I personally couldn't care less if a band is singing about God, Satan, Buddha, Captain Kirk, or the Teletubbies. If they're a good band, they're a good band. If they suck, they suck.

Fat Freddy wrote:

Joe wrote:

I have to say that my biggest beef is that there is a genre called "Christian" metal. What does that really mean? If it is just based on lyrical content, then we should have "political" metal or "sci-fi" metal or whatever other theme you can think of. I honestly think this whole term was created to try and downgrade the quality of the music to all the "tr00 metalheadz"

Hear, hear.

As I've said many a time before around this forum (sing it with me if you know the words, kids!): I personally couldn't care less if a band is singing about God, Satan, Buddha, Captain Kirk, or the Teletubbies. If they're a good band, they're a good band. If they suck, they suck.

I'll drink to that! If I only listened to artists I agree with politically and religiously, I'd have to get rid of hundereds of CDs and start listening to country music and Christian radio-no thank you.

Fat Freddy wrote:

Joe wrote:

I have to say that my biggest beef is that there is a genre called "Christian" metal. What does that really mean? If it is just based on lyrical content, then we should have "political" metal or "sci-fi" metal or whatever other theme you can think of. I honestly think this whole term was created to try and downgrade the quality of the music to all the "tr00 metalheadz"

Hear, hear.

As I've said many a time before around this forum (sing it with me if you know the words, kids!): I personally couldn't care less if a band is singing about God, Satan, Buddha, Captain Kirk, or the Teletubbies. If they're a good band, they're a good band. If they suck, they suck.

Teletubby Metal!

ultmetal wrote:

Fat Freddy wrote:

Joe wrote:

I have to say that my biggest beef is that there is a genre called "Christian" metal. What does that really mean? If it is just based on lyrical content, then we should have "political" metal or "sci-fi" metal or whatever other theme you can think of. I honestly think this whole term was created to try and downgrade the quality of the music to all the "tr00 metalheadz"

Hear, hear.

As I've said many a time before around this forum (sing it with me if you know the words, kids!): I personally couldn't care less if a band is singing about God, Satan, Buddha, Captain Kirk, or the Teletubbies. If they're a good band, they're a good band. If they suck, they suck.

Teletubby Metal!

According to Jerry Falwell, that would be "Happy" metal - lol!!!!

Quote :

Like I already stated, there are many bands in every scene that purposely wear their influence on their sleeve. It's not something distinct to the Christian scene and I wouldn't call it a problem. IT is what it is. If a band wants to have a similar style to AC/DC or Judas Priest, so be it. No one seems to complain when a jazz artist plays jazz, but when a metal band sounds like another metal band, suddenly it's a problem?

I agree with this. I look at bands who play Heavy Metal (or AOR, as it were) the same way I look at Jazz or Bluegrass players...traditionalists keeping a a valid art form from becoming extinct. We play it because we love it...we're not trying to build a better mousetrap.

Teletubby metal would be way too extreme. You guys are crazy.

ultmetal wrote:

Olafsto wrote:

In Europe we have no White Metal/Christian Metal Scene, there are a few christian bands but nothing like you have in US.
About the cloning of Metal bands. I`ve read more then once people claiming that the christian momevent have created bands that sounds similar to ordinary bands, so christian youth won`t have to listen to evil secular bands.
I have no idea if there is any truth in this. But if there is, that`s a different thing than being inspired by other bands...

I've only ever met one guy from a Christian band that ever said he was trying to be "the Christian alternative" for another band. That guy was David Benson and he was advertising himself as the Christian Ozzy. I've met hundreds of Christian artists over the years and have been in bands with many as well and never had any others say they were trying to be an alternative of some secular band. So, that is the exception moreso than the rule.

I always thought Randy Rose was trying to be a Christian Danzig.

Some of these artists are just a little too blatant to be a coincidence.

It takes a certain amount of skill to effectively clone a band anyway ....