Retroactive/Bombworks Records requesting help...

Received this email over the weekend. I thought I would pass it on to those who post here. I think most metal fans here are real fans and actually purchase the hardcopy of new releases. However, in light of recent discussions on Steve Rowe's comments about illegal downloading killing small labels and bands, I thought I should post this here too.

Quote :

Hi Guys,

Here is some info on stopping rampant illegal download sites. As a label this illegal downloading has literally cost us thousands of sales. Seventh Angel has sold poorly for us - a big name release! Yet, one of 20 free downloads sites has a counter that said the album had been downloaded 7500 times.

As a label, we need your help in clamping down on these sites.

It is extremely important for us to hammer down on illegal downloads early in the life of a release when the demand is highest.

Bombworks and Retroactive cannot do this alone - we need your help and help from your fans to assist in policing this.
Most file hosting companys "only" require the following information from you,
emailed to their abuse department.

ex. Rapidshare

abuse@rapidshare.com

We are the copyright owners of this recording

ARTIST: SEVENTH ANGEL
ALBUM: THE DUST OF YEARS
LABEL: BOMBWORKS/RETROACTIVE RECORDS

linked from several illegal MP3 sharing sites.

We kindly ask you to remove the files from your server. Thank you.

LOCATION OF FILE:
FILENAME:

Some require you mention where it was linked from:

LINKED FROM:
NAME:
COMPANY;
ADDRESS:
PHONE:

Thanks for anything you can do to help......

Matt

How sad it is that one free sight has the Seventh Angel CD being downloaded over 7,500 times, yet the label hasn't even sold out of the initial pressing of 1000 CD copies. That's just wrong.

In the 80's, we use to pass around cassette copies of albums. However, I know that myself and most of the people I knew would buy the album if we liked it. It was almost like you HAD to have the record, tape or CD of the band or you just didn't really own it. It's odd now that music fans no longer care about owning the music, but many just want to steal it and never really own something tangelable. I guess I am of one of the "old school".

Geez, that sucks. Nowadays record labels need a squadron of full time people whose job is to just search the Net for blogs, torrent sites, etc. for their artists' material on it...and even if they did that, they'd probably barely put a dent in what's out there.

I had read somewhere about a year ago that a coalition of European record labels banded together and went after Rapidshare (the biggest file-storage site) but it didn't really amount to anything...Rapidshare's policy seems to be "we don't police what users store on our servers," in other words, "we don't ask, so we don't tell." Unless they're contacted directly by someone representing an artist/label/copyright owner they obviously don't give a crap what people put up on their site.

Just a quick Google search resulted in a couple of blogs featuring illegal Ultimatum albums....

http://white-metal-7.blogspot.com/search?q=ultimatum
http://inteligenciaelternativa.blogspot.com/2008/09/ultimatum.html


I'm not an artist, but I would be pissed if someone was stealing my art. Sure it's not like a band like Ultimatum would become rich from record sales, but if no one buys their new album, the record label may not be so quick to front the cash for their next project. It sickens me that "fans" would do this to a current artist.

SpectreFate wrote:

Just a quick Google search resulted in a couple of blogs featuring illegal Ultimatum albums....

http://white-metal-7.blogspot.com/search?q=ultimatum
http://inteligenciaelternativa.blogspot.com/2008/09/ultimatum.html

.

GIT'EM ULT!! :suc: :flames:

You know, I want people to hear our music, so it's a catch 22. The problem is, if you don't even sell enough units to cover costs, even as an independent artist, it's hard to stay afloat.

ultmetal wrote:

You know, I want people to hear our music, so it's a catch 22. The problem is, if you don't even sell enough units to cover costs, even as an independent artist, it's hard to stay afloat.

I understand that argument, but at the same time, the music business is just that. A business. Matt depends on units being sold to keep his label running. If someone is just downloading, 9 times out of 10, they won't buy the album, Retroactive has a buttload of unsold units, then he doesn't want to pay for another Ultimatum release. What Matt is doing is providing us fans with excellent christian metal, even if it doesn't make him a lot of money. I would hate to stab him in the back by just downloading his label's artists. Plus, honestly stealing a christian band's music is kind of counter-productive. The thief obviously isn't getting the message of the music.

People have shown me where LINE OF FIRE has been on these sites and I honestly don't care. People are going to do what they're going to do.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

People have shown me where LINE OF FIRE has been on these sites and I honestly don't care. People are going to do what they're going to do.

I understand this. That's sort of what I have always thought. I just want people to hear the music.

However, I am seeing where this sort of thought is killing small labels and bands. If a label like Retroactive isn't even making enough to cover the costs on a release, they will soon have to stop releasing stuff. I mean, I would think that selling 1000 copies of the new Seventh Angel would be an easy no brainer. The same with Mortification. They may not be as popular as they use to be, but selling a couple thousand copies to cover costs shouldn't be hard for a band with a history and fanbase like them.

As a band we (Ultimatum) have gone through more than 1000 copies of CDs selling direct through our website and ad concerts. However, with more and more people stealing the music, the costs aren't being covered and labels are losing money. Small labels like Retroactive, Bombworks, Retrospect, etc. aren't making tons of money to begin with. They do it for the love of the music, but they have to make enough money to cover costs and then some. Even bigger labels like SPV are hurting to the point of bankruptcy. Something has to give.

I agree. Something does indeed have to give.

I've rambled endlessly about this subject before, but I see more and more bands going totally indie...pooling thier money for recording equipment, recording thier own music and putting it out themselves as cheaply as possible...it's almost like a backlash to overhyped, overproduced, overprocessed music...it'll get raw, ragged and real again...

Just a theory...

To me the bottom line is, it's stealing. Plain and simple. I can't even imagine how frustrating it must be to see those numbers on downloading and then your actual sales. Got a make bands feel like just quitting. All that work and practice for literally NOTHING.

Like pretty much everything on the internet, it's a double-edged sword. There are people out there who are going to steal stuff and never pay up...it's just human nature. But at the same time you've got people who are really interested in checking out a band for the first time and downloading is one of the best ways to go about that (unless you're on LaLa or something).

In this economy, nobody is buying anything. The old days of "blind purchases" because you see a CD in the record store are gone...the CD stores are gone, the selections are gone, the disposable income is gone. I know I won't buy anything unless I hear it all the way through first.

Again i will mention the other "evil" that nobody ever talks about.

Used CDs.

The only people that profit from the sale of used CDs are the stores themselves. The band loses a sale, the label, the distributor, etc. I know people that want to own an entire catalog by a band...so they'll search high and low until they find ever single title used. Then they'll claim what a huge "fan" they are....when the band hasn't made a dime.

detuned wrote:

Again i will mention the other "evil" that nobody ever talks about.

Used CDs.

The only people that profit from the sale of used CDs are the stores themselves. The band loses a sale, the label, the distributor, etc. I know people that want to own an entire catalog by a band...so they'll search high and low until they find ever single title used. Then they'll claim what a huge "fan" they are....when the band hasn't made a dime.

I don't see the comparison at all to stealing. You've been able to buy used cassettes and CD's since there inception 20+ years ago.

I wonder how many people even see this as stealing anymore. When the music is removed from a visible physical medium such as a cd and only becomes ones and zeros on someone's hard drive, people seem to view it differently for some reason. I guess many people just see music as only another file they downloaded from that big nebulous entity called the internet and not something they've just stolen.

Its plain and simple. If we could find a way to dowload food what would happen to Taco bell and Applebees? What would hapen to Malls and Walmart if we could download new clothes and so on? Its the same thing. Lets face it. The internet has made life more interesting in some ways but quite frankly the internet has destroyed what used to be the music business.

MetalChaz wrote:

Its plain and simple. If we could find a way to dowload food what would happen to Taco bell and Applebees? What would hapen to Malls and Walmart if we could download new clothes and so on? Its the same thing. Lets face it. The internet has made life more interesting in some ways but quite frankly the internet has destroyed what used to be the music business.

Hmmmm....no more waiting for an empty "changing room". Just upload your picture and PRESTO!!

In my opinion it is an development of how music has lost it`s role in the society.
Many of the younger people do not understand that music is more than a crappy sounding MP3.

If I talk about myself, I really want to be a friend of the bands, I want to help, I want to support because I see a big difference in beeing just a fan of a mainstream band or beeing a real Metalhead. Many legendary outstanding Metal- or Rockalbums going with me my whole life, they have a meaning for me, mark different periods, for example I can still remember the first records that I bought or remember what I was listening to during my first car crash....

What I mean if you have a personal relationship with a band if you are a real fan, a collector with passion you will never hurt your band through robbing it.
You always want the original no crappy MP3 or whatever, you want the bandpic., the stickers, the booklet.

Which brings me to an other thing, the only way against this downloading mania is to bring specials, bring quality in sound and packaging, which also of course means to bring good bands, bands that can stand the test of time.

In general of course this won`t stop the illegal downloads but could be a first step in the right direction.

Of course last but not least we should not forget the promocopy selling as source for illegal downloads. I have seen tons of promos on the net or in second hand stores already.

Metalgiant wrote:

Which brings me to an other thing, the only way against this downloading mania is to bring specials, bring quality in sound and packaging, which also of course means to bring good bands, bands that can stand the test of time.

In general of course this won`t stop the illegal downloads but could be a first step in the right direction.

This has never stopped. There are good bands with excellent sound and production along with great art and packaging. And they are still getting hosed. And most of them have full time jobs. Where 15+ years ago, they'd be wealthy for their creativity and success. The real money has always been in touring, which takes money.

Second hand stores will buy up promo copies in a quick second...I've even seen some buy the cardboard sleeve ones and sell them for $5...

Something else to think about:

Metal used to be major-label material. Once Quiet Riot broke, Metal became big business. Iron Maiden, Motley Crue, Judas Priest, Metallica, Dokken, Metal Church, Ratt, Testament...all were on major commercial labels...not small little indie labels (even though some started there).

This would be the equivalent today of Iced Earth being on Sony or Lazarus A.D. being on Island.

Many of the fans who were old enough to remember these bands when they were new still cling to the "go to the store and pick up the record" mindset. Not a bad mindset to have, mind you, but Metal in those days was just as commercial as Rick Springfield or Men At Work...they were on the same playing field.

These days, Metal is not on that plane...which makes it misleading when younger Metal bands strive for record deals...especially Metal bands who play what is seen as a "classic" or "old" style of Metal. They remember thier dad or uncle talking about seeing Iron Maiden at MSG or seeing Ratt/Dokken at the local arena and part of them still romanticizes the entire thing.

The internet is indeed a dual edged sword. Metal (Classic Metal) will never, ever be as mainstream as whatever is #1 (and stays #1 for more than 1 week...charts are misleading as well). The only way bands are going to make it is to take the sound forward...Opeth, Mastodon, Lamb Of God, Slipknot, whatever...these bands must be doing something right to have landed on arguably the biggest label catering to this kind of music (Roadrunner). Sure, thier physical sales may not be as large as they could be without the internet...but kids are going in droves to see them in concert...there's the money. They're making thier label enough money to keep making more records, so they must be doing something right.

Now, if this is the way a young band wants to go, to try and reach that zenith, then go for it...but prepare yourself for a lot of work and a lot of disappointment.

One reason why labels catering to Classic Metal can't survive long term is that the longer they are around, the smaller thier audience gets. Older people eventually quit buying music. The audiences for older styles dwindles each year while the audience with all the enthusiasm and daddy's money build up the next generation of Metal bands who are forging the music ahead and grow in droves. As those kids grow up and become adults, they will taper off in how they buy muisc also.

We have to understand. The reason we are here on this forum is because we are what's left after the trend wore off. How many of our friends, if we are 30 and over, have "outgrown" Metal and now look at it as a phase of thier life like bell-bottoms or parachute pants? The real fans, the ones who live for the next release, who want the CD with the bonus disc and the poster, the ones who wear NEW tour shirts from older bands...we are a small group. Most of the 20,000 people in the arena in 1986 when Iron Maiden played could care less about them now and probably think they broke up 20 years ago.

Simply put, if you play an older/classic/old-school (whatever) type of music, no matter how good you are at it and how many gowing reviews you get, you are never going to be what your heroes were. Ever. Especially if its Metal.

We have to realize that we're a tiny, tiny group of music fans. Which brings me to Seventh Angel and the reason for this thread. Seventh Angel was not Iron Maiden. Seventh Angel was not even Toxik or Deliverance. Seventh Angel was a band who came in on the tail end of a tiny, tiny movement within Metal (the classic Christian Metal movement). The Christian Metal movement was barely a blip on the radar of the Metal scene as a whole in the glory days. Now, that said, lets look at the 7500 downloads. I would wager that nearly 80%+ of those were deleted and/or filed away on a hard drive never to be listened to and only looked at as some sort of collection filler. If those were actualy CD's, they'd sit on a shelf unplayed or be sold at a used store. These 80%+ wouldn't have bought it anyway. I would also wager to say that some of the remaining 20% bought it after listening to it because they are fans. People like Ult & Kurt are an even smaller minority within the minority. There's no money catering to the Ult's & Kurt's of the world. To expect Seventh Angel to move 1,000+ units quickly is pretty ambitious and optomistic.

I would rather have one fan buy my CD and love it/keep it than have ten of them buy it and hate it/sell it.

Internet sharing/downloading is no more of a crime than dubbing tapes was in the early days. It's just easier and quicker to do. Plus, being a non-physical medium, its cheaper ultimately. The industry screwed up by ignoring the internet and are now scrambling to pick up the pieces. It's a crime...it is stealing...but there's no way, IMO, to get a big enough finger to plug this dam.

Shawn, that's the best post on this topic I think I've ever read. Brilliant.

MetalChaz wrote:

If we could find a way to dowload food...

...then America would be fatter than it is already.

Its funny I just spoke to my father last night. After I told him we were playin in Germany he asked me how much I get for it. When I told him that its not about the money he pretty much told me that I am waisting my time and if I were doing it for money then he would be right.

I have had a lot of my friends ask me why I was still working a day job. I was on Metal Blade Records at the time. People just dont understand how it is these days. Today u can have some underground fame and be broker than a farmer without crops lol We went to Mexico in 2005 and we singed so many autagraphs on to cd covers that none of us had ever seen before. In Mexico they deplicate your albums over and over and SELL them!!!! It will make u sick if u sit and dwell on it. I do it for the love of the sport and for a ministry as well. To be honest I have been in Jacobs Dream for 3 albums now and I have played many shows several of which has been out of the country and i think Ive personally seen about umm...200 dollars or so? Anyways my point is Metal is not where the money is so if ur gonna do it then u better love what u do.

detuned wrote:

Shawn, that's the best post on this topic I think I've ever read. Brilliant.

I agree. None of my old friends still listen to metal. Guys I really thought bled it were nothing put posers.

I really feel bad for the little guys like Matt. That's a lot of hard work and to watch it be stolen has to be depressing.

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Anyways my point is Metal is not where the money is so if ur gonna do it then u better love what u do.

This goes for bands, magazines, labels, and anything related to Metal...