I was just wondering..... (Part Deux)

Stender wrote:

I knew this thread was spec making light of the other controversial thread but I guess I will say what I think.

I believe God despises all killing. Abortion is murder.

One thing though: In the Bible Moses recounted in Exodus 20:13 (New International Version)

"You shall not murder" (intentional, premeditated and without judicial sentence)


In my book there is a difference between murder and killing. God orders Joshua in Joshua 6 when the walls came down to kill every living thing in Jericho. I do not think God despises all killing - but he does say no murdering.

Alex

Hmmm...that's a really interesting point Alex.

I have to cogitate on that one. Killing vs murder...

I shall return...

exact33 wrote:

Stender wrote:

I knew this thread was spec making light of the other controversial thread but I guess I will say what I think.

I believe God despises all killing. Abortion is murder.

One thing though: In the Bible Moses recounted in Exodus 20:13 (New International Version)

"You shall not murder" (intentional, premeditated and without judicial sentence)


In my book there is a difference between murder and killing. God orders Joshua in Joshua 6 when the walls came down to kill every living thing in Jericho. I do not think God despises all killing - but he does say no murdering.

Alex

I understand your point. What I meant was killing without a purpose or reason. God himself commanded the israelites to kill entire cities because they were pagans in the promise land. Theres dozens of references to that sort of thing like when Aiken(I think thats spelled right?) was stoned to death, or the guy that grabbed the ark when it was falling over...I cant remember his name right now...but yeah thats what I meant.

I think God still dosnt enjoy killing in any circumstance, and it pains him when it happens even during instances where it was required in the bible.

Stender wrote:

I understand your point. What I meant was killing without a purpose or reason.

Purpose and reason are two highly objective things.

Quote :

I think God still dosnt enjoy killing in any circumstance, and it pains him when it happens even during instances where it was required in the bible.

I think that's a rather flimsy interpretation to justify a belief. The Bible is easily the most violent book ever written. Have you ever truly read it with an open mind? Murder is God's command for tons of things--wives, neighbors, non-believers.

If one believes and has faith, then he/she should believe in all of it. This sort of selective worship baffles me. How many Christians here have tattoos? Is that not scarring/mutilation? Of course it is, and it goes against God's word. Yet so many will defend themselves with some crazy interpretation of what that passage means. The problem is that the dang writings are so contradictory that no one can follow all. Their heads would explode.

What I find amazing is that so many who believe are extremely selective in what they'll believe. The Bible is open to interpretation, yet things like abortion are not. Why is that?

Quote :

If one believes and has faith, then he/she should believe in all of it.

All of what? That's why there are so many denominations under the christian umbrella. Not all christians believe exactly the same thing.

Eyesore wrote:

The Bible is open to interpretation, yet things like abortion are not. Why is that?

This is a very good question actually, I'm quite curious myself.

Smindas wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

The Bible is open to interpretation, yet things like abortion are not. Why is that?

This is a very good question actually, I'm quite curious myself.

But it is....plenty of christians are pro-choice.

Eyesore wrote:

Stender wrote:

I understand your point. What I meant was killing without a purpose or reason.

Purpose and reason are two highly objective things.

Quote :

I think God still dosnt enjoy killing in any circumstance, and it pains him when it happens even during instances where it was required in the bible.

I think that's a rather flimsy interpretation to justify a belief. The Bible is easily the most violent book ever written. Have you ever truly read it with an open mind? Murder is God's command for tons of things--wives, neighbors, non-believers.

If one believes and has faith, then he/she should believe in all of it. This sort of selective worship baffles me. How many Christians here have tattoos? Is that not scarring/mutilation? Of course it is, and it goes against God's word. Yet so many will defend themselves with some crazy interpretation of what that passage means. The problem is that the dang writings are so contradictory that no one can follow all. Their heads would explode.

What I find amazing is that so many who believe are extremely selective in what they'll believe. The Bible is open to interpretation, yet things like abortion are not. Why is that?

well you raise interesting points but I think you have to read the bible as a whole for context and cultural meaning. Lots of people, for good and bad, take bible passages out of context for their own purposes. Many people apply modern day concepts to the Bible which would have had no basis at all to the original recpients. One of the first basic concept of biblical exegesis is understanding what it would have meant to the original readers. People go wild, for example, with Revelations and how it fortells of war in the Med with the US Med Fleet. That has no meaning whatsoever for the Jewish Christians of the time. When you understand the conditions of the Jewish nation at the time of the writing of Revelations (the Roman persecution and destruction of the temple/scattering of the Jews) the meaning is a lot clearer. Understanding what it means to the original readers and understanding their culture allows you to understand what it means and then how to apply today. It takes more work and means harder study but I think the result is more accurate and honoring to God.

Quote :

Lots of people, for good and bad, take bible passages out of context for their own purposes

Cults build their brand of Christianity around certain verses instead of the whole book as a whole.

well you raise interesting points but I think you have to read the bible as a whole for context and cultural meaning. Lots of people, for good and bad, take bible passages out of context for their own purposes. Many people apply modern day concepts to the Bible which would have had no basis at all to the original recpients. One of the first basic concept of biblical exegesis is understanding what it would have meant to the original readers. People go wild, for example, with Revelations and how it fortells of war in the Med with the US Med Fleet. That has no meaning whatsoever for the Jewish Christians of the time. When you understand the conditions of the Jewish nation at the time of the writing of Revelations (the Roman persecution and destruction of the temple/scattering of the Jews) the meaning is a lot clearer. Understanding what it means to the original readers and understanding their culture allows you to understand what it means and then how to apply today. It takes more work and means harder study but I think the result is more accurate and honoring to God.[/quote]

Very good point! You have to understand the context of what was happening at the time, and understand that alot of the old testament is a recorded history of the Jewish people. Back in the old testament, if you got married and your new wife's hyman was already broken, you where to take her outside the city walls and stone her. That doesn't take into account that sex isn't the only way a woman's hyman can be broken.

As far as Revealtions, to the Christians at the time and the writer fo Revelations, it seemed to be the end of the world.

There are people who question who much of Paul's ideas influenced the early church over what Jesus taught. Heck, the Apostles didn't agree on everything!

The other issue to look at is the different between biblical infalability vs biblical innerrancy - two different things. Is the Bible God's revelation to us about him self? Is there any chance for errors in the bible? Is the bible as we know it today error free? Did God sit down and force the author of each book's hand to move and type every word or are we looking at the author's understanding at the time? How much of the wriitng was influenced by the culture of the time?

Inrteresting questions to consider.....

Hey, I'm not coming down on anyone. I believe in swordfish, but not the puffer-fish. All I know is that throughout my life, the loudest, most arrogant Christians have been those that pick bits and pieces to believe and throw in your face, while completely disregarding countless other things. And usually those things are passages that directly go against choices they've made in their own life.

That's the kind of stuff that irks me. The preaching, propagandizing of the Bible, and so forth. All the while, these people are leading a life that's more negative than my own.

I personally think people should find faith in what they choose, and be good people.

Eyesore wrote:

Hey, I'm not coming down on anyone. I believe in swordfish, but not the puffer-fish. All I know is that throughout my life, the loudest, most arrogant Christians have been those that pick bits and pieces to believe and throw in your face, while completely disregarding countless other things. And usually those things are passages that directly go against choices they've made in their own life.

That's the kind of stuff that irks me. The preaching, propagandizing of the Bible, and so forth. All the while, these people are leading a life that's more negative than my own.

I personally think people should find faith in what they choose, and be good people.

I believe in swordfish!!!.....god I love the deadmilkmen.

Eyesore wrote:

That's the kind of stuff that irks me. The preaching, propagandizing of the Bible, and so forth. All the while, these people are leading a life that's more negative than my own.

I personally think people should find faith in what they choose, and be good people.

I think that if you talk the talk you walk the walk. That is the hardest thing to do. I will say that for me it is the most difficult thing to do. I am not perfect and will never be on this earth. I think some Christians sometimes portray that they are perfect because deep down inside they know they are not and its easier to focus on someone else's imperfections than their own. I know myself it is much easier to talk about how bad this person is than to acknowledge my own faults...

Alex

Quote :

I could have been a father at 16. Meaning I'd have a kid about to enter college right now. There's no way having a kid at that age would have been a good thing, for anyone. Thus, I am pro-choice.

Quote :

I'm against abortion in general but one thing bugs me... What if the woman is raped? Should she have to live with the fact that she brought the rapist's child into the world? I believe abortion/murder is extremely wrong but the rape thing bothers me at the same time.

I have a strong personal stance on this.

My wife's Mom was raped at 15 and @ 16 gave birth to my wife. She raised this incredible person who is a now great wife to me and a better Mom to my kids.

The above quoted arguments don't hold water, in my opinion.

Quote :

How many Christians here have tattoos? Is that not scarring/mutilation? Of course it is, and it goes against God's word. Yet so many will defend themselves with some crazy interpretation of what that passage means.

Easily one of the most misquoted and misused passages of the Bible.

That comes out of Leviticus (Chapter 19) and it's for the Israelites...the Children of Israel....for what that's worth to you.

scottmitchell74 wrote:

Quote :

I could have been a father at 16. Meaning I'd have a kid about to enter college right now. There's no way having a kid at that age would have been a good thing, for anyone. Thus, I am pro-choice.

Quote :

I'm against abortion in general but one thing bugs me... What if the woman is raped? Should she have to live with the fact that she brought the rapist's child into the world? I believe abortion/murder is extremely wrong but the rape thing bothers me at the same time.

I have a strong personal stance on this.

My wife's Mom was raped at 15 and @ 16 gave birth to my wife. She raised this incredible person who is a now great wife to me and a better Mom to my kids.

The above quoted arguments don't hold water, in my opinion.

There always will be exceptions and people with thick skin.

It is easy to know what is truth and what is open to interpretation. The Bible is Truth and NOTHING is open to interpretation. Every verse has corresponding and supporting verses. That is why it is so easy to take one verse and completely blow it out of context. Such as, "The Law was nailed to the cross". Most Christians beleive that that is about the 10 Commandments. Well, it is actually about the Mosiac Law that was so prevalent and restricting in Jesus' time. The 10 Commandments are Gods Law and can never be changed or "done away with". Yet, how many Christians do you know that honor the Seventh Day and Keep It Holy? Funny how 9 Commandments are still good for us, but that one was "Nailed to the Cross".

scottmitchell74 wrote:

Quote :

I could have been a father at 16. Meaning I'd have a kid about to enter college right now. There's no way having a kid at that age would have been a good thing, for anyone. Thus, I am pro-choice.

Quote :

I'm against abortion in general but one thing bugs me... What if the woman is raped? Should she have to live with the fact that she brought the rapist's child into the world? I believe abortion/murder is extremely wrong but the rape thing bothers me at the same time.

I have a strong personal stance on this.

My wife's Mom was raped at 15 and @ 16 gave birth to my wife. She raised this incredible person who is a now great wife to me and a better Mom to my kids.

The above quoted arguments don't hold water, in my opinion.

Thats a moving story Scott, makes you think...
Sometimes wonderful things comes out of the worst crimes.
Your wives mother must be one tough lady!
At the same time i can never understand that anyone would judge a 15 year old rape victim, if she wants an abortion.
That should be her own choice.

I believe that life begins once two sets of chromosomes have joined. You have the genetic information for a fully operating human separate from the mother. The arguement for viability is fairly weak as a one year old kid couldn't survive on it's own, so is it viable? And why punish the unborn for the evils of another?

And I want to address the tatoo law of Leviticus. Not only was it for the Israelites it was the type of religious marking the Egyptians and other cultures to honor and worship the dead. I have tatoos and none were for that reason. Understanding the Old Testament is difficult but much of it was for social reasons and to protect the Jews from things like disease, infestations of mold etc. And, they were a nation set apart, to be better then those around them so the expectation was higher. They were to be a light to the nations that pointed to a coming messiah who would be the final sacrifice so immeadiately the laws doing with sacrifical rites were changed. The whole story is one of God trying to point them to a time when Jesus would come and to help show other nations the way. Of course, we know from history, they often failed.

[quote="NumbskullakaNazgul"]And why punish the unborn for the evils of another?


I still say it has to be the womans choice.
And what about incest?
Do you think that a girl that`s raped by her father should be forced to carry his child?

I'll take back the comment about the tattoos. That's something I've heard from others, so if it's wrong, my apologies. I am no expert on the Bible. However, it doesn't change the point I was trying to make about the sort of selective belief system many employ.

As for the abortion issue, comparing a one-year-old to a fetus is a terrible stretch to make a point. A one-year-old could survive on its own for quite a time, actually. Leave him alone in a house and he'll live. He will die eventually, of course, but so would we all, presented with a situation where there was no food/water. A one-year-old is a living, breathing, fully functioning person. The same cannot be said about a fetus.

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Do you think that a girl that`s raped by her father should be forced to carry his child?

A terrible situation to be sure. First may I say that everyone wants to go to the extreme cases that by most estimates are less then 1% of all abortions. The other 99% are for convenience.
Now, having known a few women that have had abortions, yes I would tell her to have the baby and work with her to put it up for adoption or whatever it takes to help her through. The abortion will not get rid of the rape but will add a huge weight that will add to the already horrendous burden. The weight that women carry after abortion is mostly ignored but there are support groups to help women deal with this issue. I work with troubled boys and one i'm working with right now is from a rape of his mother. Should I tell him it would have been better he was aborted?
I'm not fighting with anyone here. This is a tough, tough issue and these are my views.

As for the abortion issue, comparing a one-year-old to a fetus is a terrible stretch to make a point.

I don't think so. A one year old can't get it's own food or water or meet any basic needs. It wouldn't last a week. But let's say it's only 1 month? Is it viable? And now that babies are born at 7 months and survive is it right to kill them after 7 months? Who gets to decide when life starts? I don't want to err on the wrong side here.

The last 5 post have been well worded and insightful.

Olafsto - I appreciate how you're approaching the subject. We disagree, but in a brotherly peaceful way.

Eyesore - I appreciate your admission of ignorance....and I'll also say that your main point is well taken. As a Christian I'm constantly at war with myself to NOT be a cafe Christian and only use parts of the Bible that are convenient for me and my likes/dislikes and strengths/weaknesses.

Nazgul - I always appreciate how you (and TallT, among others) are able to so diplomatically and lovingly present your views without sounding like a douche.

The tone and spirit of this thread is encouraging!!

scottmitchell74 wrote:

The last 5 post have been well worded and insightful.


The tone and spirit of this thread is encouraging!!

Agreed.
This thread proves that it`s possible to discuss such important and difficult matters without starting a flame war. .

Just to make it clear, I dont think abortion is ok just for convinience.
But i feel strongly that it is in certain cases, such as rape, incest ++.

My oldest son is the result of a drunken one night stand in my youth.
The mother kept the pregnancy a secret, and i had no idea til after he was born. Knowing myself back then, i would proparbly have pushed for an abortion. Today i see this great kid, and i am forever grateful for having him.

So to sum up my wiev, it is those extreme cases, we all know they happen, where i think the mother should be supported no matter what her decision is.