Gawd, I love Doom Metal...

TrogDawn wrote:

mc666 wrote:

you guys have some badass riffs. as in Lust & Fallen World.

That's probably the highest compliment you could have given me - thank you.

mc666 wrote:

a little to much ambiance & softness for me though, if those other two songs are to be included.

That is true of the debut, which does have those elements present. The upcoming one (Darkest Void) should prove to be replete with riffage galore and plenty of brain doomage.

are you accepting pre-orders? if so, i need the infos. also, you say the debut has some ambiance.. .what is the percentage to the metal? i am more of a metal guy & would prefer to listen to the heavy stuff. however i can handle a few ambient tracks(like displayed on The Living Waters, by Last Chapter). sometimes it adds to the mood, so long as it doesn't overshadow the metal.

TrogDawn wrote:

mc666 wrote:

you guys have some badass riffs. as in Lust & Fallen World.

That's probably the highest compliment you could have given me - thank you.

mc666 wrote:

a little to much ambience & softness for me though, if those other two songs are to be included.

That is true of the debut, which does have those elements present. The upcoming one (Darkest Void) should prove to be replete with riffage galore and plenty of brain doomage.

I'll probably be more into your new one then.

It does my heart good to see my Doom thread alive and kicking...

mc666 wrote:

are you accepting pre-orders? if so, i need the infos.

Not at this point. I'll let you know when/if I decide to go the pre-order route though.

mc666 wrote:

also, you say the debut has some ambiance.. .what is the percentage to the metal? i am more of a metal guy & would prefer to listen to the heavy stuff. however i can handle a few ambient tracks(like displayed on The Living Waters, by Last Chapter). sometimes it adds to the mood, so long as it doesn't overshadow the metal.

That's a good question, so I'll try and break it down for you by track along with track lengths. The two longest tracks on the cd are the most metal, so it may be a little over 50% metal versus the other styles:

01. "667" (totally ambient instrumental intro to 'Fallen World' - 1:41)
02. "Fallen World [including 'Human Race']" (total doom-metal all the way through - 9:28 )
03. "Redeemed" (classic rock-ish - 3:26)
04. "Longing" (acoustic ambient instrumental - 3:58 )
05. "Forever After" (doom metal/cover of Sabbath - 5:55)
06. "Flower" (acoustic classic rock-ish - 6:05)
07. "Dood" (ambient/world didgeridoo piece - 1:55)
08. "Lust [including 'Testimony' & 'Droon']" (total doom-metal all the way through - 10:34)
09. "Look On The Cross" (classic rock-ish - 4:21)
10. "Dawn" (totally ambient - 5:10)

Hope that helps.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

It does my heart good to see my Doom thread alive and kicking...

Yep, we're not dead...we just move slowly in order to piss the reaper off.

This might be a dumb question but what is the difference between doom metal and stoner metal?

I would say that "Stoner" has more of a Rock side to it; while "Doom" has a darker side. But I think there is a huge overlap, lots of bands can fit both definitions.

*I* think there is. I am one of the people who makes people mad by harmlessly analyzing music. So I shall start my tirade. First, a preference. I dislike 99% of stoner metal. For one I'm not a stoner, and the benchmarks of the style that have supposedly come whilst "under the influence" tend to irritate me in their more commercial leanings and their bouncy bluesiness. Doom is sort of a strong and excluding word and I think it excludes the stoner thing pretty well, though I'll acknowledge the stoner thing is a clear kind of offshoot. I really don't know how much I can express the fact that there is an entire genre based off of drugs annoys me. Yes, I get it well enough. I get the "deeper" leanings behind it. I am well versed in Orange Goblin, Electric Wizard, etc. The overreliance on the drug image and sound that goes with it just irritates me and ruins the rest of it for me. So that being said, I feel that the traits of doom, while equally escapist in scope, are much more sober, and much more authentically DARK than stoner stuff. They allow it to branch out in more elaborate ways than the stoner stuff does, though not a *greater* amount of ways. Doom should be more than just a handful of Sabbath colliding with radio rock, which is what most of the non-'epic' stoner stuff has evolved into. I also think doom loses an edge when it branches too much into "classic metal" territory, when you start spotting the Priest influences. It quickly becomes a myriad of small parts of styles simplified and made bland. This may come out sounding as if 'doom' as a pure form is just a bit too excluding, as I mentioned before - and I think it is, the same as punk rock and black metal is. However, where it lacks in elaborative potential, it possesses with great range in scope. Stoner is excluding as well, but it is, in my opinion, a genre with less quality to offer and thus less chance for *realized* potential.

I have offered descriptives of stoner and yet within that have come across as simply leaving doom with the remainders, so I will balance things out a bit. In any case I will have comparison directly to stoner because it's the offshoot that often is considered equal. As the obvious blanket expression, doom is more "serious" in mood and melody. In it's escapism it is focused, clear, and intense physically and metaphysically, unlike stoner which takes a less dramatic, less intellectual brand of nihilism and juxtaposes it's fleeing nature by still embracing much of what is wrong with the world, a selfishness without a cause, a fraud in losing reality, and undeserving of the experience. Doom metal is the stern opposer, unwavering in view, moving along a path to the same end but in a march rather than a shuffle, a king to the agreeable but hapless jester. It has no use for pop rock idioms, extended bluesy swing, or floundering psychedelia, tempering everything involved in an epic sort of sense with extreme intent and resolution based on simple and objective pessimism.

Hey, I read all that! I want a cookie! Seriously though, I do think there are bands that (according to some of our subjectivites) can't be viewed as exclusively Doom or Stoner, at least according to a large minority of us here if not a consensus.

1. Bands that are stoner, but not doom such as Monster Magnet, Stonegard, Graveyard etc.
2. Bands that are at times both stoner and doom that have the escapist mentality but also use thundering doom riffs such as Obsessed, Sleep, Sheavy, or even Kyuss or Trouble. Cathedral at times too. The originals Bang and Buffalo were clearly a bastard between hard rock and Sabbath.
3. Bands that are doom and not stoner. Penance, Sevenchurch, Gates of Slumber, or some might even consider Veni Domine or (early) Tad Morose doom because of the heavyness of both subject matter and riff. The confusion (or difference of opinion) comes I think from the fact that some would exclude these last two because they rarely use the "classic" Sabbath derived doom riffage; but might include bands like Sleep who use doom riffs but in service of escapist themes. The catagories can be thought of as exclusive, yes. But your criteria is the approach the bands take; and I know for a fact that others (rightly or wrongly) are using different criteria.

Love the music, hate the categorization...(but I'm not a fan of labels either literal or figurative).

The music we're discussing all comes from Black Sabbath in some way, shape or form. Sabbath did doom and Sabbath did blues based tunes and Sabbath were definitely stoners. But I wouldn't label them as either category because they also did many other things.

Of the Sabbath influenced group of bands, I would list the following as some of my favorites (in no particular order)

Witchfinder General
Kyuss
Celtic Frost
Trouble
Sleep
Orange Goblin
Unida
Solace
Cathedral
The "Wino" bands (Hidden Hand, Spirit Caravan, etc.)
Candlemass (the music, I've never liked any of their vocalists)
Acid King
Suplecs
Witchcraft
Graveyard
The Sword
Earth
and many more...

By the way, one of the best "Doom" riffs of all-time was written by The Beatles...I Want You (She's So Heavy) from Abbey Road.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

Doom metal is the stern opposer, unwavering in view, moving along a path to the same end but in a march rather than a shuffle, a king to the agreeable but hapless jester. It has no use for pop rock idioms, extended bluesy swing, or floundering psychedelia, tempering everything involved in an epic sort of sense with extreme intent and resolution based on simple and objective pessimism.

In other words, it takes itself WAY too seriously...

I think it's a continuum, with only some bands being either/or. As far as "I Want You/She's So Heavy"; am I the only one here that's heard the version by the krautrock band Kin Ping Meh? It's played in Black Sabbath Wizard stop start mode, and yes, it's a doom song! Or stoner anyway. It's on one of the first two (very fine) Kin Ping Meh albums.

p.s. edit- I am in fact the only one who's heard the Kin Ping Meh version, because it isn't "She's So Heavy" (that was by a later German band Coroner), but rather "Come Together" that Kin Ping covered. Sorry for my confusion! But that's two mean Beatles covers there.

SAHB Healer wrote:

I think it's a continuum, with only some bands being either/or. As far as "I Want You/She's So Heavy"; am I the only one here that's heard the version by the krautrock band Kin Ping Meh? It's played in Black Sabbath Wizard stop start mode, and yes, it's a doom song! Or stoner anyway. It's on one of the first two (very fine) Kin Ping Meh albums.

I need to check that out...

I liked Coroner's version as well.

SAHB Healer wrote:

I would say that "Stoner" has more of a Rock side to it; while "Doom" has a darker side. But I think there is a huge overlap, lots of bands can fit both definitions.

I can see that.

I'm a big fan of both stoner and doom and while this is just one MetalGuy's opinion, the stoner genre seems to be a little more light-hearted and fun, whereas the doom stuff is more serious and dark.

Oops again. King Pin Meh in fact covered Come Together in doom mode, not she's so heavy. That was Coroner that covered that. Sorry. (see above edit).

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

*I* think there is. I am one of the people who makes people mad by harmlessly analyzing music. So I shall start my tirade. First, a preference. I dislike 99% of stoner metal. For one I'm not a stoner, and the benchmarks of the style that have supposedly come whilst "under the influence" tend to irritate me in their more commercial leanings and their bouncy bluesiness. Doom is sort of a strong and excluding word and I think it excludes the stoner thing pretty well, though I'll acknowledge the stoner thing is a clear kind of offshoot. I really don't know how much I can express the fact that there is an entire genre based off of drugs annoys me. Yes, I get it well enough. I get the "deeper" leanings behind it. I am well versed in Orange Goblin, Electric Wizard, etc. The overreliance on the drug image and sound that goes with it just irritates me and ruins the rest of it for me. So that being said, I feel that the traits of doom, while equally escapist in scope, are much more sober, and much more authentically DARK than stoner stuff. They allow it to branch out in more elaborate ways than the stoner stuff does, though not a *greater* amount of ways. Doom should be more than just a handful of Sabbath colliding with radio rock, which is what most of the non-'epic' stoner stuff has evolved into. I also think doom loses an edge when it branches too much into "classic metal" territory, when you start spotting the Priest influences. It quickly becomes a myriad of small parts of styles simplified and made bland. This may come out sounding as if 'doom' as a pure form is just a bit too excluding, as I mentioned before - and I think it is, the same as punk rock and black metal is. However, where it lacks in elaborative potential, it possesses with great range in scope. Stoner is excluding as well, but it is, in my opinion, a genre with less quality to offer and thus less chance for *realized* potential.

I have offered descriptives of stoner and yet within that have come across as simply leaving doom with the remainders, so I will balance things out a bit. In any case I will have comparison directly to stoner because it's the offshoot that often is considered equal. As the obvious blanket expression, doom is more "serious" in mood and melody. In it's escapism it is focused, clear, and intense physically and metaphysically, unlike stoner which takes a less dramatic, less intellectual brand of nihilism and juxtaposes it's fleeing nature by still embracing much of what is wrong with the world, a selfishness without a cause, a fraud in losing reality, and undeserving of the experience. Doom metal is the stern opposer, unwavering in view, moving along a path to the same end but in a march rather than a shuffle, a king to the agreeable but hapless jester. It has no use for pop rock idioms, extended bluesy swing, or floundering psychedelia, tempering everything involved in an epic sort of sense with extreme intent and resolution based on simple and objective pessimism.

Reading that makes me feel dizzy. Seriously, and please take no offence, I think you overanalize music WAY too much. I am glad that I don't take that approach to music. For me, I let my ears choose the music and leave my brain out of it. Maybe because you are a musician you just can't help but pick it apart like that, I don't know (I can't read/write music or play any instrument). I am not complaining, it's just that your thought process amazes me.

I'm critical of the idea that you must seperate and have either or..or even worse, that they are considered different things..

Quote :

I am glad that I don't take that approach to music. For me, I let my ears choose the music and leave my brain out of it.

...making that a very depressing thing to read. The ears have everything to do with it, they communicate what you hear to your brain, which translates it (or does not, if you do not understand the 'language') to your heart, and so forth. I could go on in a lot of detail. It's kind of discouraging to basically have it summed up as a long-winded thingy with a 'speed vs feel', 'brain vs braun' kind of perception which isn't how I operate at all..

And I hope that's not taken as an attack, etc. It's just very discouraging. I don't find any truth in such juxtapositions and I don't think it's bad to provide syntax when it's asked for. I'm literally drowning in music, all of the time. I am not "cold" or "too serious" or "think too much" or any of the usual things like that.... the post talks primarily about the feelings, and why and how are they there. I just thought it might help..

Today's DOOM-list:

TROUBLE - Psalm 9
THE OBSESSED - Lunar Womb
REVELATION - Yet So Far
CATHEDRAL - Endtyme

I need to get the latest SAHG album....thier debut was great!

Digging on some Death/Doom now...THERGOTHON and EVOKEN....slow, deadly heavy stuff...

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

I need to get the latest SAHG album....thier debut was great!

SAHG?

It's a doomy Norsk retro type band. You'd think it would stand for "Sensational Alex Harvey Group", wouldn't you? But it doesn't. I think it's the Norwegian word for hemorrhoids or something actually. Kmorg would know.

SAHB Healer wrote:

It's a doomy Norsk retro type band. You'd think it would stand for "Sensational Alex Harvey Group", wouldn't you? But it doesn't. I think it's the Norwegian word for hemorrhoids or something actually. Kmorg would know.

Thanks for the info, I thought it was an acronym.

I dunno, maybe it is an acronym. I'm not sure. "Sore Assed Hemorrhoid Guys"?

http://www.myspace.com/sahg

Count Raven their very doomy