Goth Metal: 101

Zooey Addict Number of posts : 17074 Age : 45

I know this is a little long, but I do have a point to it.

In a previous thread, someone said that Nightwish is not a metal band. Unfortunately, more than a few people think this due to the fact that many goth fans have embraced them. The fact is that Nightwish has no relationship to goth rock (or goth metal for that matter) except it's dark, poetic, and some of the members dress in a gothic fashion (medieval shirts, etc.). Nightwish was originally supposed to be an acoustic band but Tarja's operatic voice was too powerful so they became a power metal band. Tuomas Holopainen, the founder of the band, had a musical background in orchestral music and a love of movie music scores so he mixed that in with the metal. The reason they were hit with the term goth was because they are darker than most power metal bands.

I think (mostly with you younger metal heads) that there is some confusion as to the term goth metal. Goth metal has nothing to do with goth rock at all. Goth rock is an offshoot of punk music that began with The Misfits and later incorporated a lot of electronic music and has gotten more pop-like these days. Goth metal was an offshoot of death/doom that started with bands like Anathema, My Dying Bride, and Paradise Lost. Later a band called Theatre of Tragedy took that sound and added orchestration and beautiful female vocals creating what is now known as beauty and the beast vocals (ironically Theatre would soon abandon metal and become electronic goth pop crap). Hope that may clear up some misunderstanding some of you have about Nightwish or goth metal in general.

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 2546 Age : 35

Hey, not all of us younger metalheads are deluded. Nightwish are power metal, through and through. If I want goth, I'll go for Type O Negative or The 69 Eyes, and they're both a bit borderline.

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Goth Metal: 101 MnoAeeo

Heart of Metal Number of posts : 2096 Age : 61

Like any other genre, goth has been bastardized by all the hybrids, not a bad thing per say, just get's a bit confusing! scratch

Zooey Addict Number of posts : 17074 Age : 45

Smindas wrote:: Hey, not all of us younger metalheads are deluded. Nightwish are power metal, through and through. If I want goth, I'll go for Type O Negative or The 69 Eyes, and they're both a bit borderline.

Calm down brother, I didn't mean all younger people just some. If it seemed like I was making a generalization I apologize. It's just that I've heard many younger people call Nightwish a Evanescence rip-0ff.

Master Sailboat Number of posts : 9301 Age : 45

who was it that said that "Nightwish is not a metal band"? that's just dumb.

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Goth Metal: 101 MNxjcKm

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 4077 Age : 51

I'm not sure I know what style Goth is? I think I get it though.

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 2546 Age : 35

DallasBlack wrote:

Smindas wrote:: Hey, not all of us younger metalheads are deluded. Nightwish are power metal, through and through. If I want goth, I'll go for Type O Negative or The 69 Eyes, and they're both a bit borderline.

Calm down brother, I didn't mean all younger people just some. If it seemed like I was making a generalization I apologize. It's just that I've heard many younger people call Nightwish a Evanescence rip-0ff.

Oh I know that, I wasn't trying to be snappy or anything. I was just proving a point. Problem with text is you can't sense the tone Very Happy

Also you should point out to those people calling Nightwish an Evansence rip-off, that Nightwish came quite a bit before. That'll shut them up.

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Goth Metal: 101 MnoAeeo

Guest

Nightwish is metal! That's not even funny that someone would think they weren't. They are indeed power metal, granted their last two albums (and their new one coming out in two weeks - I can't wait to get it YAY!) are all incorporating some gothic elements in the music.

Granted, their first 3 albums were pretty much straight out operatic power metal. Starting with "Century Child", then progressing into "Once" they indeed had a lot of gothic overtones to their music, thus being tagged 'gothic metal' by the metal community at large. Gothic metal is not a bad thing though.

And by the way, Evanescence wouldn't be considered gothic metal, they would be more gothic 'nu metal' if you will.

Just my two rusted cents.

:D

Metal, Movies, Beer Number of posts : 37962 Age : 54

DallasBlack wrote:: It's just that I've heard many younger people call Nightwish a Evanescence rip-0ff.

Lacuna Coil get called an "Evanescence ripoff" a lot too, even though L.C. was around long before Evanescence. It's just that Evanescence were the first band to take that style to the bank

Zooey Addict Number of posts : 17074 Age : 45

blackieboy wrote:: Nightwish is metal! That's not even funny that someone would think they weren't. They are indeed power metal, granted their last two albums (and their new one coming out in two weeks - I can't wait to get it YAY!) are all incorporating some gothic elements in the music.

Granted, their first 3 albums were pretty much straight out operatic power metal. Starting with "Century Child", then progressing into "Once" they indeed had a lot of gothic overtones to their music, thus being tagged 'gothic metal' by the metal community at large. Gothic metal is not a bad thing though.

And by the way, Evanescence wouldn't be considered gothic metal, they would be more gothic 'nu metal' if you will.

Just my two rusted cents.

:D

Thats why when people always compare the two it makes me sick Enanescence is heavy but it is in no way metal. Of course gothic metal is not a bad thing considering it's doom/death roots.

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 2793 Age : 66

I don't know how the old goth scene that got started with post-punk (Bauhaus, Cure); fits in. To my ears the Sisters of Mercy were kind of a link between earlier goth and Paradise Lost and Type O, etc.

Zooey Addict Number of posts : 17074 Age : 45

SAHB Healer wrote:: I don't know how the old goth scene that got started with post-punk (Bauhaus, Cure); fits in.

It's just that a lot of people have a misconception that goth metal is metal influenced by goth rock (post-punk) when it is just a progression of death/doom to a more orchestral and operatic nature. Because of the dark and poetic nature of it, it has made it acceptable to the goths, but unlike the goth scene which is just as much about the appearance as the music, if you look at pictures of goth metal bands (i.e. Epica, Sirenia, Trail Of Tears, Leaves' Eyes, etc.) there is no resemblance to the goth culture at all (apart from the females, they look like typical metal heads).

Guest

candlemass wrote:: Like any other genre, goth has been bastardized by all the hybrids, not a bad thing per say, just get's a bit confusing!

Whoa! We finally agree!

I also agree that Nightwish is not goth-metal. They're most definitely a symphonic epic metal band, not so different than Rhapsody...of FIRE!! I'm honestly baffled at how they became so popular, especially here in the US. I've never been able to figure it out.

As for goth in general, it's definitely a hard label to pin down. It's so broad now that it's just easier to pull all those offshoots under one roof, you know? For instance, I label HIM as goth rock. Not sure if you'd consider that accurate, but it's what I feel is accurate. Goth metal, to me, would be Before The Dawn (like I mentioned in that other thread), not Nightwish at all.

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 2793 Age : 66

To confuse the issue even further, the wave what we now call classic heavy metal, what we called power metal 10 years ago, was often called gothic metal 20 years ago. I've read a lot of old reviews that refer to Yngwie Malmsteen as "gothic metal"; because of the dungeons & dragons; castles and sword themes. I still call it power metal, but apparently the term power metal has now morphed somewhere toward the heavier end of the spectrum. scratch

Master Sailboat Number of posts : 9301 Age : 45

Eyesore wrote:

candlemass wrote:: Like any other genre, goth has been bastardized by all the hybrids, not a bad thing per say, just get's a bit confusing!

Whoa! We finally agree!

holy smokes.. next thing you know, Uncle Sax & I will be having an ice cold brew together.

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Goth Metal: 101 MNxjcKm

Guest

Smindas wrote:: Also you should point out to those people calling Nightwish an Evansence rip-off, that Nightwish came quite a bit before.

Not really. Nightwish formed in 1996, Evanescence in 1998.

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 2546 Age : 35

That's still 2 years. 2 years of plagerism! *beaten*

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Goth Metal: 101 MnoAeeo

Heart of Metal Number of posts : 2096 Age : 61

Quote: I also agree that Nightwish is not goth-metal. They're most definitely a symphonic epic metal band, not so different than Rhapsody...of FIRE!! I'm honestly baffled at how they became so popular, especially here in the US. I've never been able to figure it out.

The major difference between Nightwish and Rhapsody is Nightwish creates great music/art, Rhapsody produces cheese!

Guest

candlemass wrote:: Rhapsody produces cheese!

Tasty, glorious cheese. Smile

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 2546 Age : 35

Hey, don't diss Rhapsody... OF FIRE!!! They're hilariously amazing.

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Goth Metal: 101 MnoAeeo

Guest

Smindas wrote:: Hey, don't diss Rhapsody... OF FIRE!!! They're hilariously amazing.

No I agree. I enjoy them. I just want to celebrate their shameless cheesiness.

Metal is in my blood Number of posts : 4077 Age : 51

mc666 wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

candlemass wrote:: Like any other
genre, goth has been bastardized by all the hybrids, not a bad thing
per say, just get's a bit confusing!

Whoa! We finally agree!

holy
smokes.. next thing you know, Uncle Sax & I will be having an ice
cold brew together.

Might as well! Isn't he shooting a movie
right now with your wife, Halle? lol!

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