Michael Behe VS Richard Dawkins

Well Michael Behe points to some flaws on the theory of evolution, but Some people say that vestigial organs in animals are a "proof" that evolution has "oficially ocurred" , so I´d go with "theistic evolution"


LIFE IS TOO f*cking COMPLEX TO NOT HAVE HAD A DESIGNER, but I think this designer ( God ) used evolution to create life. bible is a mithological book with some good parts , it doesn´t explain the origin of life by any means ( literal or alegorically ) . evolution ALONE also doesn´t explain ( the origin of life ) . so I´d go with theistic evolution, that the "designer" created life throught evolution.

anyone would like to discuss about this subject here ?

This video has something mentioning the vestigial organs as a "proof" of evolution. but evolution doens´t disprove the need of a "designer" for life. it justdisprove the Bible as the explanation for the origins of life

to the video:

Or I believe in BOTH Intelligent Design and evolution ( for now ).

Well this is the "other side" of the coin:



yeah, life is to complex to not be have designed ...

Trying to prove the existence of deities seems pointless to me. If you turn faith into science, it's not faith any more.

If there is a God or not, it's not relevant to us anyway. If you knew there was no God, would you suddenly lose your morals? Or if you suddenly knew for a fact that there is a God, wouldn't you only change your ways for selfish reasons? Not because you're a better person, but only because you don't want to go to hell.

Point is, religion is there to help you figure out right and wrong, but you still have to answer to yourself first and foremost and be accountable for your actions. Even if there is no god.

when I was "evangelical" I had ( and still have ) spiritual experiences that couldn´t be explained by phisiology anyways. I believed it was a sign from the "Holy Spirit". Now I believe its a sign from the Gods. I think irreducible complexicity of certain systems in the body would "disprove" RANDOM evolution. I refuse to believe in RANDOM evolution. and I also refuse to believe in the bible.

We get it, we get what you think.... you are getting into the ism's (board rules: 3 - ISM'S
Many "ism's" will not be tolerated whatsoever…Racism, Sexism, Religion-ism, etc. One warning and that's it. Do it again, and you're banned. Period!)... a lot of folks around these parts happen to be Evangelicals. They don't tell the non-evangelical, Catholics, Atheists, Agnostics, Satanist, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or any group I am missing posters that they are going to burn in hell for all of eternity because of their beliefs.


We're here to talk music and shoot the shit, not evangelical theology. 


Stick to the OK topics and you'll be fine around here.

Dear thejokeriv , the topic is about SCIENCE. you should check out the videos. I didn´t attack "evangelicals" in any single point of this topic, I just mentioned them here. The topic is about science and the question: how has life actually appeared on earth ?

This entire creationism vs. evolution argument is such crap that it's honestly one of those public arguments I want to see go away.

Here's the bottom line: nobody knows @#$#. Seriously, nobody does. Religious folks? Doctrine changes. Interpretation of ALL scripture changes, opinions differ, etc.

Science folks? It's an ever-expanding field. We always learn new things that either disprove or unbalance what came before and then the original premise needs to be re-examined, reviewed, etc.

Maybe God exists, maybe God doesn't exist, maybe the universe was engineered and maybe it's just the product of stupid chance. Does it matter? Not really. The entire enterprise on both sides has enough "gut instinct" and "personal bias" to it that you can't export it. You can make a case and maybe someone will agree with your personal philosophy or theory, but there is no 100% lock-step, complete-in-box answer the universe, meaning of life or whatever.

Seriously, there's so much FUN to be had in sharing theories and evidence and discoveries that the oneupsmanship of this "debate" is like someone puking on you when you're about to sleep with the hottest person at the party.    

Great post, Runicen.

Lari wrote:

Great post, Runicen.

Thanks. I know this kind of thing rides the third rail for some people, but ever since I first heard an atheist ramble about how backwards the religious are and heard a religious person state that evolution was crap and in contradiction to their doctrine on a supreme being, this kind of topic kind of engages my eye twitch.

I mean, even looking at evolution - let's assume it's the real deal. It's either one AMAZING mechanism that has evolved over time during a natural trial-and-error or it's an AMAZING mechanism that was engineered by a supreme being (in fact, you'd think the really hardcore religious types would be all over this because humans couldn't devise a machine that not only repairs itself, but IMPROVES itself - sounds like an advanced mind at work to me). It doesn't become any less amazing in either interpretation.

Ditto for nature, the power of human mind, love, etc.

Ah, crap... I'm turning into a hippie...   

Runicen wrote:

Lari wrote:

Great post, Runicen.

Thanks.  I know this kind of thing rides the third rail for some people, but ever since I first heard an atheist ramble about how backwards the religious are and heard a religious person state that evolution was crap and in contradiction to their doctrine on a supreme being, this kind of topic kind of engages my eye twitch.

I mean, even looking at evolution - let's assume it's the real deal.  It's either one AMAZING mechanism that has evolved over time during a natural trial-and-error or it's an AMAZING mechanism that was engineered by a supreme being (in fact, you'd think the really hardcore religious types would be all over this because humans couldn't devise a machine that not only repairs itself, but IMPROVES itself - sounds like an advanced mind at work to me).  It doesn't become any less amazing in either interpretation.

Ditto for nature, the power of human mind, love, etc.  

Ah, crap...  I'm turning into a hippie...    

But its cool , in this case the true "hippie" is the opposite of the "yuppie-playboy" which has the looks , the extreme pride and no substance at all and also no opinions ( the so called here in Brazil "playboys" )

ze_mau wrote:

But its cool , in this case the true "hippie" is the opposite of the "yuppie-playboy" which has the looks , the extreme pride and no substance at all and also no opinions ( the so called here in Brazil "playboys" )

But I don't WANT to start stinking of Patchouli and playing hacky sack!   

Dude, can I buy some pot from you? Because it HAS to be good.

DeathCult wrote:

Dude, can I buy some pot from you? Because it HAS to be good.

  

DeathCult wrote:

Dude, can I buy some pot from you? Because it HAS to be good.

Ok, you won.   

I dunno if you´re referring to me ( about the pot ) but I only smoke it from times to times ... and I think it shouldn´t be legalized ( here ) because it causes mental confusion

Runicen wrote:

Lari wrote:

Great post, Runicen.

Thanks.  I know this kind of thing rides the third rail for some people, but ever since I first heard an atheist ramble about how backwards the religious are and heard a religious person state that evolution was crap and in contradiction to their doctrine on a supreme being, this kind of topic kind of engages my eye twitch.

I mean, even looking at evolution - let's assume it's the real deal.  It's either one AMAZING mechanism that has evolved over time during a natural trial-and-error or it's an AMAZING mechanism that was engineered by a supreme being (in fact, you'd think the really hardcore religious types would be all over this because humans couldn't devise a machine that not only repairs itself, but IMPROVES itself - sounds like an advanced mind at work to me).  It doesn't become any less amazing in either interpretation.

Ditto for nature, the power of human mind, love, etc.  

Ah, crap...  I'm turning into a hippie...    

But trying to continue this discussion, in what sense do you mean animals are machines that "improve" themselves ? But its fantastic how organisms can actually recover from injury by themselves ... bone fractures are examples of this. you keep the wounded limb motionless and it actually repairs itself.

Certainly designed by a supreme being, a higher intelligence. no doubt about that fact.

And no doubt about the fact that bible is a fairytale ( no offense here , this is just my view ).

But talking about the vestigial organs, what would be the reason for a "designer" to put them in animals if they have no function at all ? Just check the first video and u will se what I´m actually talking about. being this a "proof" of evolution, I think that the gods may work on evolution by making it a gradual process , so the organs that have no function "gradually" disappear but trying to explain such only by "random" mutations that must be inheritable makes no sense to me.

ze_mau wrote:

I dunno if you´re referring to me ( about the pot ) but I only smoke it from times to times ... and I think it shouldn´t be legalized ( here ) because it causes mental confusion

that much is evident.

exact33 wrote:

ze_mau wrote:

I dunno if you´re referring to me ( about the pot ) but I only smoke it from times to times ... and I think it shouldn´t be legalized ( here ) because it causes mental confusion

that much is evident.

That little revelation explains A LOT.

tohostudios wrote:

exact33 wrote:

ze_mau wrote:

I dunno if you´re referring to me ( about the pot ) but I only smoke it from times to times ... and I think it shouldn´t be legalized ( here ) because it causes mental confusion

that much is evident.

That little revelation explains A LOT.

i think this clearly goes in the column against legalization...

tohostudios wrote:

exact33 wrote:

ze_mau wrote:

I dunno if you´re referring to me ( about the pot ) but I only smoke it from times to times ... and I think it shouldn´t be legalized ( here ) because it causes mental confusion

that much is evident.

That little revelation explains A LOT.

Now we know why he never makes sense.Haha

I´m against legalization too. But there´s a long time since I have last smoked "weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed". But what about the discussion of the thread ? GO ON FISHES !!! SHOW YOUR POINT ABOUT IT THEN !!!

The fact is: there IS a designer.