What makes a musician legendary ?

Greetings:
 
    I have been talking with a neighbor lately about bands.  The topic of Nirvana came up and their recent induction into RRHOF.  We didn't discuss if they deserved to be in or out, but rather if Pat Smear merited inclusion with them ?  I wasn't sure who he was, although the name sounded familiar. I did recall an additional musician playing with them on MTV unplugged and the neighbor stated that was him.  He also mentioned Pat plays currently with Foo Fighters and began his career in The Germs.
     My familiarity with Nirvana is quite limited, as well as Foo Fighters and The Germs. I remember The Germs being part of the west coast skateboard/punk scene when I was racing downhill in the late 1970's. I realize the Foo Fighters are pretty huge nowadays.  My neighbor says Pat Smear is a musical legend. I pretty much told him that perhaps Pat deserved inclusion when Foo Fighters are eligible  , but not with Nirvana.  An extra touring musician just doesn't seem to merit it. (IMHDO)  He mentioned all the other punk bands Pat had been involved with.  Again, I told my neighbor that having to explain a musicians musical pedigree and you still have someone oblivious for the most part. Usually makes legend very subjective.  He later came to me with obscure inductees and said, "what about these people.  One was a manager and I replied after looking up the name later that you'd just have to say, he managed this band or that band, Then  somebody would then go "ok, them"  The other guy was a promoter and I said, "if you said to people, he was the guy who booked tours for bands in the US during the British Invasion back in the 60's. Again, somebody would go "okay". He didn't seem to understand my placing some sort of recognition to a name.  I then told him. "who is Pat Smear ?"  and continued with "He was in The Germs. (who ?) "He was the guitar player in Nirvana". (Oh the guy who killed himself) "Nope, the other one". (there were two ? wow !)  "He plays in Foo Fighters" .(Ok, I know them).
       I brought up a name and he didn't recognize it. I said "he was in Metallica" My neighbor said, "are they already inducted ?" I said, "yes".  "So why mention it ?" I said. "he played with them before they recorded their first album but wrote a lot of songs on that album." and "Metallica recognized him but didn't include him in induction"  My neighbor then said, "I see your point but maybe being a guy who just played in clubs doesn't deserve it like Pat Smear and his musical legacy"  I finished with, "He started his own band afterwards that went on to sell millions and millions of albums worldwide and tour the world to this very day". My neighbor then asked me which band was that and I replied "Megadeth"  He was oblivious    This made me wonder something, thus my question above. "Is legend subjective ?"

James B. wrote:

"Is legend subjective ?"

Of course. A metal fan from the 1980s might have no issue proclaiming Dave Mustaine as being a "legendary" metal performer. But outside of the world of metal fans many people would say "Who?". He's only legendary among the people that admire him.

The one name that springs to mind on this subject is The Wrecking Crew, legendary session band that seemingly played on every record recorded in L.A in the 1960's. Are they unsung Rock & Roll legends? I'd say so, but they were not their songs so maybe not. Do they deserve to go into the RRHOF for their contribution?

Re: Pat Smear's eligibility for the RNRHOF... I think your neighbor is seriously over estimating Smear's contribution to Nirvana. I doubt he'd be inducted with Nirvana cuz he was simply a "hired gun" brought in to play additional guitar; he is not an "original" member. It would be like Tommy Thayer being enshrined as a member of KISS.

I think legend is very subjective. It really depends on the the listener's opinion long term of music.

Pat Smear a talent musician but outside of the unplugged and a one live album, he did not record a studio album with Nirvana and was a touring musician, and in the Germs the main songwriting was also dead Darby Crash, that is not to say he did not contribute, I like the Germs but the guys and gal could barely tune their instruments half of the time.

To answer this question I went to the source of all knowledge, Google.

After typing in Legendary, and hitting the "I'm feeling lucky" button, I found the answer:

Spoiler:

If you are referring to Dave Mustaine, he was actually invited to be a part of the induction for Metallica but Dave declined due to scheduling conflicts.

I am not entirely sure if Pat was just a touring musician for Nirvana or if he would have been on the next album if there was one. Hard to say, I would say for Nirvana I would say no. Definitely when the Foo Fighters are eligable. Which I think for the Foos is another 6 years away.

As with Kiss I read That Gene and Paul have no plans to include Ace and Peter which I think is wrong.

What makes a musician legendary I dont think there is any set criteria I would think the biggest things would be musical contributions and longevity and the impact their work has had.

Death. Death makes a musician legendary. Even the crappy ones.

I think that statement is partially right, theres plenty of living legends

Eric Clapton
John Paul Jones
Brian May
David Gilmore
Roger Waters
Robert Plant
Jimmy Paige
BB King
David Bowie

to name a few

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Death. Death makes a musician legendary. Even the crappy ones.

Which makes Nirvan a subject of the conversation once again 

This line of reasoning would make every musician ever to have played legendary.......................

Eventually!!   

Addy wrote:

As with Kiss I read That Gene and Paul have no plans to include Ace and Peter which I think is wrong.

Ace & Peter will be inducted. Gene & Paul have no plans to play w/ Ace & Peter in make up at the induction.

My view is if you consider someone a legend, then they're a legend. Just like if an artist is "good" or not. An eye of the beholder type of deal.

The example of Nirvana is interesting because it's often forgotten that Grohl wasn't an original member either. Chad Channing come on down.

Dont forget

Guitarist - Jason Everman
Drummer- Dale Crover
Aaron Buchard
Chad Channing
Dan Peters

Their tolerance level for drug consumption. There are sooooo many musicians that are considered "legendary" today only because they could not handle their drugs and died young.

yeah between dope and plane crashes....Lots of legends kickin off !

My taint

Whenever I think of "what could have been"... Whether that be Randy, Jimi, John Bonham, etc - I always think of Eddie Van Halen and BB King. Two "legends" that are still kicking. But they have done nothing innovative for 20 and 40 years respectively. So, I see Randy, Jimi, John Bonham hitting their creative high marks right before they died - or, at best, a year or two after.

I think it's mostly subjective. But there are very rare instances where a performer, or a group's contribution to their medium, whether it be in movies like Alfred Hitchcock, or comics like Stan Lee, can't go without praise from anyone without a clouded distaste for that person. For example, The Beatles. I myself love The Beatles, but I know many people who don't, yet acknowledge their contribution to music. The Beatles changed the music scene all across the globe, did so making what they wanted to make, and practically every band for the next 20 years, and many to this day, cite them as life-changing influences, and many of those may have never made music, or the music they did make, had they not heard The Beatles.

Whether you like them or not, I feel the same, though to not quite an astronomical extent, can be said about Nirvana. Their music shaped the landscape of audio entertainment for over a decade, they influenced many of the biggest bands of their time and past it, and many people feel like their lives were changed and bettered due to the influence of Nirvana's music.

Things like that, I think, make bands undeniably legendary, whether you consider them "good" or not. For, "legend" and "good", no matter how often people tie them together, are not necessarily synonyms.

It's totally subjective. Here's a good sports analogy. Joe Namath is considered a legend, and that is largely due to one game. He stated before Super Bowl III that the Jets would beat the Colts. It wasn't just about a team in the Jets who were a huge underdog to the Colts, but it was about a league in that of the A.F.L. trying to gain recognition, by beating an N.F.L. team. Well, the Jets won 16-7, and Joe's legendary status was set in only his third year of playing.

In 1985 Joe Namath is elected to the Hall of Fame. Here are some of Joe's career stats:

INT's: 220 ~ T.D's: 173
Completion Percentage: 50.1%
Q.B.R.: 65.5

Do those numbers represent someone worthy of the Hall of Fame or a legend and yet the guy is in the Hall and considered a legend. If you don't think much of the Joe Namath analogy, then Robert Horry, who was a seven time NBA Champion might better fit the mold. He was a huge coattail rider. He had some memorable moments with clutch shooting, but he mostly was a gravy trainer his whole career. He was just lucky enough to play with the likes of Akeem Olajuwon, Clyde Drexler, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neil, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, etc...

With having said all that, Pat Smear probably isn't even close to being on the level of Joe Namath (who is clearly overrated) or Robert Horry (who is marginally overrated). Pat Smear has been a hired gun for the majority of his musical career. He came into Nirvana, WHEN they were already riding a huge wave of success (1993) and he's the forgotten guy in the Foo Fighters.

Just because you've been a part of some great bands, doesn't mean your worthy of a Hall of Fame induction or legendary status. I think your neighbor is guilty of living in a vacuum as it pertains to music.

Good points, one caveat is that Joe Namath also became a huge celebrity outside of football, he was a household name whether anyone saw him play a game or not. In the 70s I had never seen O.J. Simpson play a game but I had seen him from Hertz commercials and TV interviews. Both of these players became more famous after they stopped playing because they crossed over into the mainstream and could be seen on TV, movies, magazines, advertisements, etc.

S.D. wrote:

Good points, one caveat is that Joe Namath also became a huge celebrity outside of football, he was a household name whether anyone saw him play a game or not.  In the 70s I had never seen O.J. Simpson play a game but I had seen him from Hertz commercials and TV interviews.  Both of these players became more famous after they stopped playing because they crossed over into the mainstream and could be seen on TV, movies, magazines, advertisements, etc.  

Good points as well. Joe Namath definitely benefited from playing in the Big Apple. Hence, the nickname "Broadway" Joe. He had this image of a "Lady Killer", who was brave enough to wear women's pantyhose in a commercial or live every guy's fantasy by sharing the spotlight with Farrah Fawcett in a Noxema ad. Most of Joe's ads were geared towards women's products, which was unique back in the 70's. I know it's probably an overused term, but he was very likely the first metro-sexual individual on T.V.

Regarding the Jets, people still revere that 68' team, and in some sort of weird way love relishing in the agony that has been the Jets franchise ever since. There's this unique dichotomy that takes place in N.Y.C, because the city has the distinction of being able to support multiple sports franchises in each league. Yankees (Big Brother) ~ Mets (Little Brother), Giants (Big Brother) ~ Jets (Little Brother). So, when the little brother gets over on the big brother, there's this deeper appreciation for that team's accomplishment, though the sense of entitlement by big brother will always be shoved down little brother's throat. Yankees (27 World Series) ~ Mets (2 World Series), Giants (4 NFL Championships & 4 Super Bowls) ~ Jets (1 Super Bowl).

Then you have the Rangers and the Islanders. Even though they both have 4 Stanley Cups, and the Islanders had one of the greatest championship runs in NHL history (4 straight from 80-83), the Rangers will always be big brother. They play in Manhattan in the Mecca, which is Madison Square Garden, and the Islanders play in Nassau (though will be moving to Brooklyn). Even with the Nets moving to Brooklyn, they will always play second fiddle to the Knicks.

The O.J Simpson analogy is interesting, as his life is truly an trilogy, football, acting, and legal problems. The one distinction that O.J had over Joe Namath was in his "Pro" football career. Though he never won a Super Bowl, his stats were more impressive, and that was while playing for some awful Bills teams. By the end of his playing career, he was the second leading rusher of all time (behind Jim Brown), and the first player to reach the 2,000 yard mark in a season (14 game schedule). Though both Joe and O.J won National Championships in college, it was O.J's feats in the NFL, which made him a decidedly better candidate for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame (which both were inducted in 1985). O.J will be legendary for different things, depending on the demographic. I know him for his football exploits, because of my love for football, and I witnessed his meteoric rise from NFL star to Hertz spokesperson ~ Monday Night Football announcer ~ actor (The Towering Inferno & Naked Gun movies) to that of infamy with his acquittal of double murder and latest legal issues.

I think the thing I find most interesting in the Pat Smear discussion is this, it seems if Pat Smear is that relevant in one's world, then one would at least know of Dave Mustaine. I know that Nirvana and Megadeth are world's apart musically, but they are both bands that wrote angst ridden aggressive music. Dave Mustaine & Megadeth were still in its infancy, and were still relevant on the likes of MTV, when Nirvana were the darlings of MTV. Hell, Dave Mustaine was the prominent musical figure for MTV's "Choose or Lose" Presidential campaign in 1992. He was interviewing every politician known to man during the conventions. Megadeth were part of the "Rock the Vote" push for MTV, where all four members had tape over their mouths. Megadeth had their signature bass line from "Peace Sells" all over MTV News. Dave and the band were constantly on "Headbangers Ball" with Rikki Rachtman. There was a huge push by MTV for "Countdown To Extinction" (behind the scenes making of the album, three videos from that album) and the band were one of two bands from the thrash genre that survived the purge, post 1992 on the channel. In fact MTV was still giving Megadeth a solid push through 1994 with the promotion of "Youthanasia", with the "Night of the Living Megadeth" show on Halloween night.