Geoff Tate to Rocklahoma, "You Guys Suck"

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I understand how 'Painkiller' can be overrated....I understand how 'Master of Puppets' can be overrated.....I understand how Led Zep and Rush in general can be overrated, and I am the first, always the very first to try and get people to stop doing the same thing over and over and over and try something unfairly overlooked.

But I honestly don't see how 'Mindcrime' is one ounce overrated. Like all good music, Queensrÿche was always a 'total' package - you can't hear some riffs or portions of the music and yet not absorb things lyrically or mood-wise, and get a complete picture..... metal fans are quite notorious for doing that, and I just really don't see how it can be done if the artist is an artist of integrity. If they are of integrity, then that means that everything you hear is meant to be heard, and nothing discarded, and therefore, you miss out by doing so. Even if it's a foreign band, even if the English is shaky, even if it's..whatever it is, you need to come to the entire thing on its turf and not yours. Now Witchfinder find the story of O:M to be weak and I can see how that could be the viewpoint from a certain angle. However, even if we are taking points off for just the story itself as a whole being imperfect, we need to look at the mini-stories each song tells. Let me put it bluntly: if you're like me, if you're an angry and discontented person, if you're a romantic like me and obsessed with the fact that the average is what is chased after rather than excellence that could be strived for.....if you're just a METAL fan and understand that there is just something wrong with the world as it is...ESPECIALLY if you live in America..........then I see no way that you won't or can't connect with the songs on this record. I don't mean any amount of disrespect at all... but it really is a matter of 'speaking the language' so to speak. Many, many, many records are like that, many are loved for that reason and also hated or misunderstood for that reason. Whatever genre or record it is, you've got to live it. I don't see any universe in which O:M is not a prime example of the dissatisfaction and frustration expressed since metal was first birthed.

And all that isn't even taking into account how in-his-prime Tate is and how ridiculously dynamic the rhythm section is and how crisp the digital sound is, how on-target each riff is.......................I could just go on and on, if Skyliner can make our debut half as good as this record is, I'll be happy.

I find a story about evil priests, hooker nuns and junkie assassins to be stupid. The last person I am using as an assassin is a junky that doesn't know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of. So yes, the story sucks. Musically I find much of it to be filler just like every other concept album. In order to facilitate the hackneyed story, the band must write songs that move the plot along and as a result, there's filler. There are great songs on OM but the filler outweighs the great for me.

Witchfinder wrote:

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I understand how 'Painkiller' can be overrated....I understand how 'Master of Puppets' can be overrated.....I understand how Led Zep and Rush in general can be overrated, and I am the first, always the very first to try and get people to stop doing the same thing over and over and over and try something unfairly overlooked.

But I honestly don't see how 'Mindcrime' is one ounce overrated. Like all good music, Queensrÿche was always a 'total' package - you can't hear some riffs or portions of the music and yet not absorb things lyrically or mood-wise, and get a complete picture..... metal fans are quite notorious for doing that, and I just really don't see how it can be done if the artist is an artist of integrity. If they are of integrity, then that means that everything you hear is meant to be heard, and nothing discarded, and therefore, you miss out by doing so. Even if it's a foreign band, even if the English is shaky, even if it's..whatever it is, you need to come to the entire thing on its turf and not yours. Now Witchfinder find the story of O:M to be weak and I can see how that could be the viewpoint from a certain angle. However, even if we are taking points off for just the story itself as a whole being imperfect, we need to look at the mini-stories each song tells. Let me put it bluntly: if you're like me, if you're an angry and discontented person, if you're a romantic like me and obsessed with the fact that the average is what is chased after rather than excellence that could be strived for.....if you're just a METAL fan and understand that there is just something wrong with the world as it is...ESPECIALLY if you live in America..........then I see no way that you won't or can't connect with the songs on this record. I don't mean any amount of disrespect at all... but it really is a matter of 'speaking the language' so to speak. Many, many, many records are like that, many are loved for that reason and also hated or misunderstood for that reason. Whatever genre or record it is, you've got to live it. I don't see any universe in which O:M is not a prime example of the dissatisfaction and frustration expressed since metal was first birthed.

And all that isn't even taking into account how in-his-prime Tate is and how ridiculously dynamic the rhythm section is and how crisp the digital sound is, how on-target each riff is.......................I could just go on and on, if Skyliner can make our debut half as good as this record is, I'll be happy.

I find a story about evil priests, hooker nuns and junkie assassins to be stupid. The last person I am using as an assassin is a junky that doesn't know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of. So yes, the story sucks. Musically I find much of it to be filler just like every other concept album. In order to facilitate the hackneyed story, the band must write songs that move the plot along and as a result, there's filler. There are great songs on OM but the filler outweighs the great for me.

For what it's worth, I don't think there is a single note of "filler" on Mindcrime. Every note is intentional in it's propulsion of the mood of the story...

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Witchfinder wrote:

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I understand how 'Painkiller' can be overrated....I understand how 'Master of Puppets' can be overrated.....I understand how Led Zep and Rush in general can be overrated, and I am the first, always the very first to try and get people to stop doing the same thing over and over and over and try something unfairly overlooked.

But I honestly don't see how 'Mindcrime' is one ounce overrated. Like all good music, Queensrÿche was always a 'total' package - you can't hear some riffs or portions of the music and yet not absorb things lyrically or mood-wise, and get a complete picture..... metal fans are quite notorious for doing that, and I just really don't see how it can be done if the artist is an artist of integrity. If they are of integrity, then that means that everything you hear is meant to be heard, and nothing discarded, and therefore, you miss out by doing so. Even if it's a foreign band, even if the English is shaky, even if it's..whatever it is, you need to come to the entire thing on its turf and not yours. Now Witchfinder find the story of O:M to be weak and I can see how that could be the viewpoint from a certain angle. However, even if we are taking points off for just the story itself as a whole being imperfect, we need to look at the mini-stories each song tells. Let me put it bluntly: if you're like me, if you're an angry and discontented person, if you're a romantic like me and obsessed with the fact that the average is what is chased after rather than excellence that could be strived for.....if you're just a METAL fan and understand that there is just something wrong with the world as it is...ESPECIALLY if you live in America..........then I see no way that you won't or can't connect with the songs on this record. I don't mean any amount of disrespect at all... but it really is a matter of 'speaking the language' so to speak. Many, many, many records are like that, many are loved for that reason and also hated or misunderstood for that reason. Whatever genre or record it is, you've got to live it. I don't see any universe in which O:M is not a prime example of the dissatisfaction and frustration expressed since metal was first birthed.

And all that isn't even taking into account how in-his-prime Tate is and how ridiculously dynamic the rhythm section is and how crisp the digital sound is, how on-target each riff is.......................I could just go on and on, if Skyliner can make our debut half as good as this record is, I'll be happy.

I find a story about evil priests, hooker nuns and junkie assassins to be stupid. The last person I am using as an assassin is a junky that doesn't know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of. So yes, the story sucks. Musically I find much of it to be filler just like every other concept album. In order to facilitate the hackneyed story, the band must write songs that move the plot along and as a result, there's filler. There are great songs on OM but the filler outweighs the great for me.

For what it's worth, I don't think there is a single note of "filler" on Mindcrime. Every note is intentional in it's propulsion of the mood of the story...

One man's gold is another man's filler.

Witchfinder wrote:

One man's gold is another man's filler.

j/k

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Witchfinder wrote:

One man's gold is another man's filler.

j/k

It's true, you do have terrible taste in music.

I still say that Hear In The Now Frontier is a great album. It definitely pointed in the direction of what was to come, but it still had great songs throughout. The albums after had a couple great songs, but were lacking overall.

But yeah, Hear In The Now Frontier is excellent, in my opinion.

Eyesore wrote:

I still say that Hear In The Now Frontier is a great album. It definitely pointed in the direction of what was to come, but it still had great songs throughout. The albums after had a couple great songs, but were lacking overall.

But yeah, Hear In The Now Frontier is excellent, in my opinion.

I actually agree...I'd say it was the last "really good" thing from Queensryche while Promised Land was the last "great" thing from Queensryche.

I officially predict that any new material from Queensryche will sound like average Power Metal w/ some modern riffs added in for good measure. It'll be "heavy" as far as guitar tone, but still lack the brooding intensity and song-stylings that made Queensryche what they were.

Remember how Ripper sounded great on old Priest songs, but it didn't make Jugulator a great album? The same thing will happen here.

Also, I think that if they want any hope at all of making this work and reviving the band, they need to take a page from Journey's book and tour for at least a year or more before putting out an album. They need to take the show to the people playing what all the fans obviously want (EP to Empire), get everyone fired up...MAYBE sprinkle a new song in toward the end. Then try to test the waters with an album.

I think a lot of my post was kind of overlooked in the reply.


I also think 'Hear in the Now'... had a handful of songs which were very, very good. I love 'You', 'Chasing Blue Sky' (it counts), 'sp00l', 'Hero'. I'm not usually in the right mood to really spin it but I'd probably never get rid of it.


I also think Pelata is right about how the new stuff will sound, but we already had a lot of Symphorce albums we didn't need, so that's really too bad that there will probably be more.

I'm sorry but if some of you really think Mindcrime was full of filler songs you better get your damn ears checked. You can also kiss my .. That is all.

I will now make the best post in the thread:

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I think a lot of my post was kind of overlooked in the reply.

Nope. I skipped the whole thing. I just woke up and don't want to read so much just yet. Haha.

Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote:

I'm sorry but if some of you really think Mindcrime was full of filler songs you better get your damn ears checked. You can also kiss my .. That is all.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I will now make the best post in the thread:

nice

"Perfect Symmetry" >>>> "Operation: Mindcrime"

MUCH better guitar work all around and MUCH better drumming

Temple of Blood wrote:

"Perfect Symmetry" >>>> "Operation: Mindcrime"

MUCH better guitar work all around and MUCH better drumming

More complex drumming, for sure...but I don't know if more complex is necessarily "better"....just "different".

Op:Mc is still at times based around some generic rock/hard rock/metal guitar riffs and chord progressions which is one reason I have a problem categorizing it as a masterpiece or perfect. "Perfect Symmetry" has far more interesting/creative guitar work and is less reliant on heavy metal guitar tropes.

If one judges heavy metal by vocals, they tend to think higher of this album. Guitar-wise, I don't see that this band originated much over its career.

Temple of Blood wrote:

If one judges heavy metal by vocals, they tend to think higher of this album. Guitar-wise, I don't see that this band originated much over its career.

I can see that. For me, O:MC is all about the moods, songs and vocal melodies. I pay less attention to how complex or complicated the guitars or drums are and more to how the songs make me feel and how they are sung...which makes sense, being a singer. I can totally agree that, instrumentally, some if it is pretty simple in terms of structure and progressions. But, what makes it brilliant to me is the moods and intensity and songs...and of course, Tate's absolutely flawless vocal performance.

I already made a post about that stuff too, so.......

QR proves no matter what the contents used inside the writing are, it's still about the writing at the end of the day......see my post where it gets personal.........it's supposed to get personal. If we as metalheads are only looking for a bunch of cool sounds stuck together, we all may as well just listen to The Great Kat or Necrophagist all day long......I mean, it's weird that Pelata has to point out that 'for him' it's all about the songs, mood etc........... because I was thinking that music in general was approached like that - or it should be, at least. Aesthetics by themselves whether complex, simple, original or non (there are people known as hipsters who also worship aesthetics in the form of 'stripped down' music), are useless out of the context of the composition, it makes music no more than a circus show to ooh and ahh at.

Though, to comment on the traditionalist angle of O:M, it IS one thing that actually makes it unique, the fact that old QR took that style and sound and married it to a totally different family of moods and themes than previous, similar bands had. It's majorly what makes the potent mixture we all miss.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

QR proves no matter what the contents used inside the writing are, it's still about the writing at the end of the day......see my post where it gets personal.........it's supposed to get personal. If we as metalheads are only looking for a bunch of cool sounds stuck together, we all may as well just listen to The Great Kat or Necrophagist all day long......I mean, it's weird that Pelata has to point out that 'for him' it's all about the songs, mood etc........... because I was thinking that music in general was approached like that - or it should be, at least. Aesthetics by themselves whether complex, simple, original or non (there are people known as hipsters who also worship aesthetics in the form of 'stripped down' music), are useless out of the context of the composition, it makes music no more than a circus show to ooh and ahh at.

Yes, but you and I both know that there are people who only listen to music waiting for the guitar solo or waiting for the singer to hit that wicked high note. They like elements of the music, and the degree of presence of those elements is directly proportionate to how much they enjoy it.

We (you, me, ToB, Ult, etc) being musicians many times tend to hear things from a different angle than people who are not musicians. Not better or worse...just differently.

Mindcrime was my introduction to the band and one of the first concept albums I'd ever heard (and somewhat understood) so it's always gonna remain in the "brilliant" category for me. Empire's still my favorite, but Mindcrime is no slouch.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Mindcrime was my introduction to the band and one of the first concept albums I'd ever heard (and somewhat understood) so it's always gonna remain in the "brilliant" category for me. Empire's still my favorite, but Mindcrime is no slouch.

Agree with you - Mindcrime is brillant!

Mindcrime is what made me a fan. Before that, I don't care much for the band at all.

MetalGuy71 wrote:

Mindcrime was my introduction to the band and one of the first concept albums I'd ever heard (and somewhat understood) so it's always gonna remain in the "brilliant" category for me. Empire's still my favorite, but Mindcrime is no slouch.

same here. I still think it is great.

big giant yawn

More fun in the QR camp:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/exclusive-q-a-geoff-tate-on-queensryches-ugly-split-backstage-brawl-in-brazil-20120626