WWF/WWE/ECW/WCW

tohostudios wrote:

I didn't know where to post this so I'll just put it here.

CLASSIC quote in the sig there DB! (But I still miss Sherman)

I miss him too I was never able to find another picture that changed daily (the old one just stopped working one day). In it's place I have my banner with Zooey and Amy (which changes every week) and whatever quote I can find from shows I love (also changes weekly) but I know it will never replace Sherman's Lagoon.

One thing I can say about AJ, is that she is the cutest WWE diva since Sunny. Most of the divas are too fake looking for my taste (most definatly overrated-except maybe Natalya). Not really sure who I fine more attractive though, Sunny back in the day or AJ. Guess I could just say they are differently hot.

DallasBlack wrote:

One thing I can say about AJ, is that she is the cutest WWE diva since Sunny. Most of the divas are too fake looking for my taste (most definatly overrated-except maybe Natalya). Not really sure who I fine more attractive though, Sunny back in the day or AJ. Guess I could just say they are differently hot.

I totally agree. I don't know if she's as cute as Sunny but she's definitely up there. She's just more "girl next door" looking than most of the surgically-enhanced divas running around.

tohostudios wrote:

Back on topic:

Today I watched the classic Hell In A Cell match between Mankind and The Undertaker. Mick Foley sure took some insane bumps in that match but according to his intro to the match, the one where he fell through the roof and got whacked in the mouth by a chair was a total accident. That's also the bump that knocked his tooth into his nostril. Just a crazy, crazy match.

A classic match that I just re-watched myself. I still wonder if that fall through the top of the cage was planned. You can see that the cable ties break loose as Foley falls through and they are a different color than the rest of the cable ties. That was an insane bump to take and it is tough to watch that match now. Brutal.

I can't state enough how much I hated that match. It was kind of a turning point in my fandom to be honest. I always felt wrestling should make me believe it is real, not be real. Just could never get into the "let's kill ourselves by falling off of high places" type of wrestling. Too crazy and the damage too real for me to enjoy. And since it is pro wrestling it became who can top it. Set a bad standard IMO.

I am in the process of converting some old VHS tapes to dvd and came across "The Superstars On The SuperStation" show. It was a live show (pre-cursor to the Clashes) that aired in late 1985. Funny thing is at the time I was a big WWF and AWA fan but for some reason had stopped watching the 6:05 TBS show once the Crockett promotion got the time slot back from the WWF. I only watched this show because they had a big full page ad in the USA Today sports section and I was a huge Tully Blanchard and Ronnie Garvin fan. This show made me a religious fan of the NWA after.

There was also a great Harley Race/Ric Flair match from Japan on the end of it. Fun stuff.

jstate wrote:

I can't state enough how much I hated that match. It was kind of a turning point in my fandom to be honest. I always felt wrestling should make me believe it is real, not be real. Just could never get into the "let's kill ourselves by falling off of high places" type of wrestling. Too crazy and the damage too real for me to enjoy. And since it is pro wrestling it became who can top it. Set a bad standard IMO.

I am in the process of converting some old VHS tapes to dvd and came across "The Superstars On The SuperStation" show. It was a live show (pre-cursor to the Clashes) that aired in late 1985. Funny thing is at the time I was a big WWF and AWA fan but for some reason had stopped watching the 6:05 TBS show once the Crockett promotion got the time slot back from the WWF. I only watched this show because they had a big full page ad in the USA Today sports section and I was a huge Tully Blanchard and Ronnie Garvin fan. This show made me a religious fan of the NWA after.

There was also a great Harley Race/Ric Flair match from Japan on the end of it. Fun stuff.

In some ways I completely agree with this. It's okay to have a brutal and bloody match but eventually you reach the point of no return. If I want real competition, I will watch MMA but with Wrestling I want storytelling and a compelling match with an athletic exhibition. This match still had some storytelling I think but it's really legendary for those two insane bumps.

Luckily, there aren't really any reputable feds doing that kind of bump anymore. I do think the Mankind/Rock match with 13 unguarded chair shots is far more brutal though. I am sure Foley will have cognitive issues in the future if he already doesn't now from that match.

Witchfinder wrote:

Luckily, there aren't really any reputable feds doing that kind of bump anymore.

I think if done in the right place, as ending to a hard-fought feud, bumps like this or extreme spots can and should be used. You can make them secure (otherwise we would have hundreds of stories of heavy injuries after those Scaffold matches that were so popular until the early 90s)
I also think i read somewhere that Foley said, the bump through the table didn't hurt as much as the bump into the ring. The WWF/E always uses very stiff rings that don't bounce (Vince think it looks stupid) and so most injuries in the WWF/E happen or happened because of that stiff ring - if it was like a regular wrestling ring, scenes like that Hell in a Cell bump could be done without a lot of damage.

Witchfinder wrote:

I do think the Mankind/Rock match with 13 unguarded chair shots is far more brutal though. I am sure Foley will have cognitive issues in the future if he already doesn't now from that match.

He suffered from Amnesia after the match and has memory loss, he can't even remember the match. There are a lot of backstage scenes after that match in the great docu "Beyond the Mat" and Foley writes about it in one of his books (don't know if it's the first or second)
Foley has done so much crazy stuff in his career, it's a wonder that he
a) isn't addicted to drugs of painkillers
b) has most of his senses still together
and the most brtal thing was still at the WCW Tour in 1994 here in Munich, where he lost his ear - it doesn't get more extreme and brutal

As for the Hell in a Cell Match: I think it was planned. WWF isn't some backyard federation, every match is to some extend or even completely scripted and it's not a Indiefederation where the wrestlers just improvise everything - especially not spots like that. What wasn't planned, was the chair that knocked Foleys teeth out. But the rest had to be planned.
I think it also should be noted that the Undertaker had a broken ankle and still worked through this match. Unbelievable.

Here's a lengthy interview with Kevin Nash: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8241536/wrestling-star-kevin-nash-making-headway-hollywood-keeps-night

Frankly, it confirms what I expected of Nash - he's an entertaining, scheming, blowhard with an inflated sense of importance. He takes credit for "inventing" Stone Cold's gimmick, has a 160+ IQ and is a multi-millionaire that still works indy shows for pennies. Some things are not adding up here. He also claims that he was as popular as Goldberg during '98. Uh, no Kev, in '98 nobody wanted you on the screen anymore as you were doing the same old NWO gimmick. Ugh.

He says the day Benoit and Guererro became champions, wrestling was ruined.

DallasBlack wrote:

He says the day Benoit and Guererro became champions, wrestling was ruined.

Nash is a d!ck, plain and simple.

It amazes me that a guy who is so limited in the ring can pass judgment on guys like Benoit and Guererro. Nash couldn't carry their jocks IMO. He's always been like Big Show, a big guy who just brawls.

Witchfinder wrote:

Frankly, it confirms what I expected of Nash - he's an entertaining, scheming, blowhard with an inflated sense of importance. He takes credit for "inventing" Stone Cold's gimmick, has a 160+ IQ and is a multi-millionaire that still works indy shows for pennies. Some things are not adding up here. He also claims that he was as popular as Goldberg during '98. Uh, no Kev, in '98 nobody wanted you on the screen anymore as you were doing the same old NWO gimmick. Ugh.

Makes sense. He's friends with the fat blowhard egomaniacal Mark Madden.Birds of a feather...

DallasBlack wrote:

He says the day Benoit and Guererro became champions, wrestling was ruined.

Of course it's funny from Nash who was involved in the "Finger poke of Doom" and was the Booker for the "Summer of Suck" but i can understand him in a classic view, the same view guys like Dominic DeNucci or Bruno Samartino have: World Champion should be the guy who is so over, so popular, that he can carry the whole federation.
In the end, despite their talent, their popularity, guys like Ted DiBiase, Texas Tornado, Mr. Perfect, Junkyard Dog or Jake Roberts were never World Champions, even though wrestling fans to this day argue that they should have been. Same as the "If he hadn't die, Owen Hart would'Ve been World Champion".
There's a good reason they never became World Champion: They never had what it takes. Bruno Sammartino was 8 years a Champion and later again 4 years, in his second run it was planned to have him with the title for maximum a year but there wasn't a strong contender, there was nobody to reach his level, so he went on and on.
Eddie Guerrero was never a World Champion, he was a Cruiserweight Guy, with a bit of talent but nothing else.He is completely overrated and later got the "He died so young" treatment which makes people instant legends.
Chris Benoit had a lot more going for him, i guess it's hindsight, suddenly wrestlers came out saying "he appeared weird" and smurf poo, had he not done what he did and would he live today we would celebrate him as one of the greatest wrestlers ever on the same level as Sammartino, DeNucci, Misawa, Keiji Mutoh and others.

Today both are good examples of how WWE is able to alter History: They make Eddie Guerrero one of the greatest Legends ever (Storylines like that crappa Rey and Eddies Son thing, Video Games and others) and with Vickie Guerrero thing - whiley they act as if Chris Benoit never existed. They showed it in other cases like the infamous "Self Destruction of Ultimate Warrior" DVD which was a complete joke yet let a shitload of Marks to believe that the Ultimate Warrior is insane, was just a flash in the pan and his popularity came from his theme song.

Can't really argue with most of your post, though I always enjoyed Eddie and never thought he was overrated. Was everything he did golden, no. However, his feud with Angle was one I liked ("Look! It's Uncle Chewy!") and the best thing was his Royal Rumble confrontation with Flair (stealing his entry #). I was just a fan of almost everything he did and I was sad when he passed. Vickie on the other hand, just annoys the crap out of me (almost as much as Michael Cole did not too long ago-though he has become more tolerable now that he doesn't have on air orgasms when Miz shows up).

I thought Guerrero was outstanding and was the real prize when the four "radicals" quit WCW for WWE. Benoit was a great wrestler but always struggled with charisma, whereas Eddy had the all-around talent. It is true, though, that the WWE struggled with how to book him. I thought they were getting close to figuring it out but, well, he passed on suddenly.

Putting the belts on Guerrero and Benoit reminded me of the risk the WWF took in putting the belt on Bret Hart years before, in that in the 80s Bret was never taken seriously as someone who could reasonably hold a singles title for any length of time, nevermind carrying the whole federation on his back, but he pulled it off wonderfully. He was hugely over and gave the WWE a fresh identity compared to the lumbering brutes that dominated main events of the 80s.

Nash has retracted his statement saying it was a WORK.

After not watching wrestling regularly for 10 years, I started watching WWE again. (Not TNA. Not yet, at least.)

And let me just say, if I had to pick a new favorite wrestler right now, it would be CM Punk.

yeah, I like CM and Jericho but Jericho just left to tour with Fozzy. I prefer the heel Jericho over the babyface Jericho. TNA is getting better. Some of the story lines are stupid but Austin Aries, Robert Roode and James Storm are all fantastic. The X Division is good too and the Knockouts Division is better than the Divas. Angle still puts on a good match too.

Added to the long list of wrestlers who have hacked off their long hair after having it for a very long time is HHH:

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/260697-photo-triple-h-cuts-his-hair-very-short

He joins a long list of wrestlers who have done this:

Big Show
Chris Jericho
CM Punk
Edge
Christian
Undertaker
DDP
Raven
Matt Hardy
Billy Gunn (though it has grown back)
Billy Kidman
Kane

I think Shawn Michaels is not on that list only because he'd have nothing to cover his bald spot .

Every one of those guys have better have lost hair matches if they consider themselves pro wrestlers.

My favorite hair match

Only 4 of those names lost hair matches. I forgot Kevin Nash which would make that 5 (though he too has since grown it back).

Jerry Lawler had a heart attack this past Monday on Raw. They performed CPR and had him on oxygen. While he has been stabilized and is off oxygen, there is a worry that he may have suffered brain damage. My thoughts and prayers certainly go out to him. While he has grown stale over the years, his wrestling legacy speaks for itself.

DallasBlack wrote:

Jerry Lawler had a heart attack this past Monday on Raw. They performed CPR and had him on oxygen. While he has been stabilized and is off oxygen, there is a worry that he may have suffered brain damage. My thoughts and prayers certainly go out to him. While he has grown stale over the years, his wrestling legacy speaks for itself.

I heard about this. That's too bad. Hope he has a full and speedy recovery.

I've recently discovered I still own my Wrestling Buddies from the early 90's, they now double as throw pillows on the couch

I just read a great article on Wrestlezone that sums up my feelings on the CM Punk heel turn. I thought and hoped they were going the tweener route, but they've turned him into a wining coward. I hate what they've done with his character as it's too forced I've become too much of a Punk fan (his politics are a different matter, most of his views rub me wrong) to ever boo or root against him. This is the article quoted with a link to the website:

Quote :

First, this isn't a PG issue. I don't believe it's the cause of WWE's problems. Therefore, I don't blame Linda McMahon and her run for Senate either, seeing as how it was most likely the cause for the switch to PG in the first place.

Both can be overcome by good creativity, storytelling and delivery.

(If you don't agree with that, I suppose you can go ahead and skip down to the bottom now and begin your arguments.)

WWE understands that today is a technology-driven era. They clearly see the importance of social media and "staying connected". But even with those forward-moving ideas, they're moving backward in the most important part of their company -- their product.

Take CM Punk as the perfect example. In fact, he's my only example. His heel turn has felt forced the entire time. Why? Because it has been. And it remains forced every week as they continue to try and find ways to make fans boo him over Cena.

As a result, you get a lesser version of Punk. He's being restricted in every possible way, all to try and convince fans (that don't want to be convinced, mind you) he's a "bad guy".

"But Chris, he's pulling it off! He's a great heel and him and Paul Heyman are great together!"

Number one, your opinion really doesn't reflect the "average wrestling fan". Surely, you already know that. Mine doesn't either. Simply saying something similar to that quote at all means you're not reacting the way Vince or Punk or Heyman want you to in the first place.

And my point isn't that Punk and Heyman are doing "bad". They're not. But they're also professionals, paid very well to "not suck". It's like asking great chefs to make great food -- it's their job.

My point is, they both can be BETTER.

Punk proved it a little over a year ago when he sat down on top of the stage and cut a FRESH promo. Notice, I didn't use the word "shoot". Why? Because it wasn't a shoot; it was a promo, like all the rest. It was just better than anything else we had heard in a LONG time.

But it couldn't last. It was likely never going to last. Vince reeled him back in quick, as soon as he got him to sign that new contract. And no, I'm not insinuating one has anything to do with the other.

Okay, maybe I am.

The other part of the equation is John Cena. Cena's role as the number one babyface of the company and Vince's rufusal to turn him heel is also the reason we're getting "this" CM Punk. As Mark Madden reported a few weeks ago on WZ, that's primarily why Punk wanted to turn in the first place.

The problem is that he's now settling. He's settling for less.

CM Punk might still be better than the rest, but he's not better than the CM Punk we were introduced to on June 27th.

And this leads me back to WWE, and the problem of principle they face. It's the ancient idea that wrestling -- and everything and everyone involved with it -- has to be black and white. Good vs evil. Heel vs face.

It's counterproductive anymore. It's crap anymore.

Fans are smarter, period. They expect more. Society as a whole is evolving. News and information is nearly instant. Reality TV is still thriving. "Real" competitive sports are being driven by incredible stars and well-told storylines. MMA draws huge even in podunk towns with nobody-knows fighters.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...WWE is just coasting along with the same old, same old.

All of this despite ratings and numbers proving they need some sort of change. And CM Punk proving he could have been, and still could be, just that. WWE still finds it more important to make fans cheer or boo a certain way.

By the way, this isn't an anti-Cena or anti-WWE column, although it's gotten dangerously close to being one without me even noticing until now. It's meant to simply point out an obvious issue that's not going anywhere anytime soon.

WWE needs to evolve, and everytime I see CM Punk right now, it reminds me of the fact they don't seem to even care.

It makes me miss Vince Russo. WHAT!?

http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/261369-the-cashbox-my-problem-w-punk-and-wwe

DallasBlack wrote:

Only 4 of those names lost hair matches. I forgot Kevin Nash which would make that 5 (though he too has since grown it back).

Actually i think Nash has short hair again. At least he has very short hair in the Kayfabe Commentaries WWE Timeline 1995 video (highly recommended by the way, it's very entertaining and interesting) which was released just a few month ago: