Black Sabbath - Born Again 2011 Deluxe Edition

First of all did anyone get this yet? Got it and love it! The remaster did it some justice! On CD 1 the bonus track 'The Fallen' is an awesome song! I had never heard it before! There is also an extended version of Stonehenge, it was ok I guess, maybe a little to much.

Disc 2 is an awesome show! I had a bootleg of it for years that was really decent but this is awesome! Live from Reading Festival in August of 83. I love these Deluxe Editions and this one was no exception!

SECOND: Some how I ordered two of these accidentally from Amazon UK. Instead of send it back and pay for shipping, I thought I would just offer it to someone here! First person that wants it and paypals me $20 (In the USA) I will send it to you! This is brand new and sealed and $20 is less then you can go buy it for today!

PM me or post here if any one wants it!

PS: Anyone know if there are more of these in the works?

Every Black Sabbath album (excl. the rest of the Ozzy albums) will be getting a Deluxe Edition at some point. Forbidden is getting a full remix.

Okay gang, I gotta throw out a "caveat" on ALL these Black Sabbath deluxe editions so far. These are all UK releases and I was hoping they would be the "definitive versions" of these albums and I'd never have to buy them again. But after picking up 3, I decided not to waste any more money on them.

Why?

Because Castle (or whatever they call themselves now) does not have access to the original master tapes for any of the Warner Bros Black Sabbath albums. They have all the "bonus material" in their possession...but none of the original tapes for the release albums. They have a second-generation backup safety copy (and in a couple of cases, just the LP master) and that's what they are using. It's not good enough.

It was very quick to discover when comparing the "Black Box" remasters to the deluxe editions. In every single case, the Black Box remaster is far superior to what Castle is putting out. This also holds true for the "Rules of Hell" box for the Dio albums.

How did this happen?

Sabbath's European label was Vertigo, the American label was Warner Bros. The first 3 Sabbath albums were recorded in the UK...but Warner Bros got ownership of all the tapes used for the "final versions" as part of the deal. By the time Volume 4 came around, they were recording in Los Angeles...so all the tapes stayed right there in LA.

That's why there is only bonus material on the first 3 Sabbath Deluxe editions...and also why the Black Box contains no bonus tracks. Because Castle is the only people that have that extra material...but only for the first 3 records.

So, it's a mess...and it's never going to be fixed. So, if you REALLY want the best versions of this stuff...it means owning both the box set AND the deluxe editions. That's just too much for me, so I'll stick with the US for now. I'm done with these imports.


*Born Again* - nobody can even find the original master tapes for Born Again. Iommi wanted to remix the album himself, but the session tapes could not be located. They used the exact same second generation Master that was used to release the 90's version...they just re-eq'd it. "The Fallen" and the longer version of "Stonehenge" were mastered from the best sounding bootleg they could find.

Thanks for the info.

Can't wait for a deluxe edition of TYR.

I hope they locate the original master tape so it can finally be remixed.

Quote :

they just re-eq'd it.

That's really all remastering is...a glorified re-EQ (super-detailed, of course)...boosting volume specs and re-EQ'ing everything to modern standards.

As for re-mixing, I don't know if I like that idea. The album is what it is...it's part of history...to re-mix it is to attempt to change history. Remixing screws with people's memories. I'm sure it technically "sounds" better in everyone's hi-def, surround sound, 5.1 systems or whatever, but I think there is something to be said for an album as it's originally released and absorbed.

I remember Tom Araya saying he didn't even like remastering, let alone remixing...his thing is the original is what sunk in to the audience (speaking for himself) and he doesn't like it to be changed.

I've done a good deal of mastering, the first rule of thumb is to only master from as close to the original source as possible. A second generation safety copy is not close enough to the original source...so you're eq'ing an already degraded copy.

The reason Iommi wants Born Again remixed is because according to him "something happened when we sent that album to the pressing plant, it sounded incredible in the studio when we were finished". He wants to go back to the original tapes to create a new stereo master, and he still plans to do it if the tapes are located.

Shawn D. wrote:

I've done a good deal of mastering, the first rule of thumb is to only master from as close to the original source as possible. A second generation safety copy is not close enough to the original source...so you're eq'ing an already degraded copy.

Technically, yes. But truly, how many regular people can hear that degradation with the human ear? I would wager that over 95% of the human population could not hear it.

Good thing I'm in the 5% who cares then.

I think it desperately needs to be remixed. I don't know much about mastering.

Shawn D. wrote:

Good thing I'm in the 5% who cares then.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Shawn D. wrote:

I've done a good deal of mastering, the first rule of thumb is to only master from as close to the original source as possible. A second generation safety copy is not close enough to the original source...so you're eq'ing an already degraded copy.

Technically, yes. But truly, how many regular people can hear that degradation with the human ear? I would wager that over 95% of the human population could not hear it.

I would say I am in that 95%

I can say with absolute certainty that I know I would not be able to tell the difference in a 1st and 2nd generation copy of a 30 year old album.

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

I can say with absolute certainty that I know I would not be able to tell the difference in a 1st and 2nd generation copy of a 30 year old album.

listen to the quiet parts, you double the noise floor every time you lose a generation.

It also depends on what kind of stereo you're listening to. If you have a $200 portable stereo from Wal Mart, you won't hear the difference.

The closer you get to professional grade equipment, the more important the mastering becomes.

Shawn D. wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

I can say with absolute certainty that I know I would not be able to tell the difference in a 1st and 2nd generation copy of a 30 year old album.

listen to the quiet parts, you double the noise floor every time you lose a generation.

It also depends on what kind of stereo you're listening to. If you have a $200 portable stereo from Wal Mart, you won't hear the difference.

The closer you get to professional grade equipment, the more important the mastering becomes.

Uh, OK......NERD!!!

I'm an audio engineer, what do you expect?

I love these deluxe editions, they are very well done. Looking forward to the rest of the Martin albums getting this treatment and yes, this Born Again edition is very cool. The bonus discs make up for any complaints you could have about remixes and remastering, IMO.

I agree with both Shawns if you are as anal as audio specialists (and I don't mean that to be negative because as a collector and a 'pseudo' specialist I appreciate it) you can listen very close and I mean very close and hear those infrequencies. I also agree that that is like a 95 / 5 split. The average listener on an iPod will NEVER know the difference and the quality is still great! But again all are very valid points and open to interpretation and individual taste and listening methods. I own all versions and can tell you the standard ear will never tell the difference and an audio engineer will.

yeah, I never really heard music the same way again after college, the "sound" became of almost equal importance to the music. Not complaining, I love being able to hear the difference and the details.

That's why some of us turn the knobs, while the the rest enjoy the finished product.

Oh, I still turn my knob.

We couldn't get the first generation dat tape back from Australia on our Puppet of Destruction so we had to use the backup. I'm not sure how the backup tape is any worse than the first tape in the digital age. It's like making two CD copies from the same original files. There is zero difference. The original mastering done in Australia sucked! The mastering studio must have had a lot of false low end, because the bottom end was just stolen from the recording. The newly remastered version on Roxx was not remixed, save for the first song, but the low end was restored from the original recording and despite not being a perfect recording sounds 100x better IMO. Sometimes getting the original master tapes is not possible, but remastering can still improve a recording.

The Moshketeers re-release was done from a cassette tape copy of the album. There are no surviving master tapes. However, the sound quality on the CD is outstanding. Of course it will never be perfect. It was an analog recording to begin with. However, whether it's in my car or on my home system, it sounds fantastic and far superior to my original cassette copy. So mastering can really make a difference in the sound of an album even if they don't have "the original master tapes".

On the other hand, mastering can totally destroy a recording. I hate the remastering that Retroactive did on Ulitmatum's Mechanics of Perilous Times. The original recording sounds far better.

Also, the stinkin' loudness wars are annoying. I have a volume button on all my stereo's. I don't need the person mastering to make my speakers sound like they are blown. (Such as in the case of Metallica's last album.)

all completely valid points.

There is no generation loss on digital recordings, it's just 1's and 0's.

You can definitely take substandard recordings and improve them with good ears and solid mastering techniques. However, if you're trying to release "definitive versions" of classic albums recorded by major record labels, there is no excuse for not using the first generation stereo master if it still exists somewhere on the planet.

There are too may people "mastering" albums that have had no training, schooling and understand no theory. Hence the number of really bad mastering jobs being done.

The loudness wars is one of the reasona I'm ditching CDs and switching back to LP's.

I get turned off by all these remastered versions now. It used to be a special thing when a classic album was re-released but now everyone is doing it and it feels more like a grab for cash. I understand bands want to go back and make stuff sound better but unless you can do it right, leave the originals alone.

exact33 wrote:

I get turned off by all these remastered versions now. It used to be a special thing when a classic album was re-released but now everyone is doing it and it feels more like a grab for cash. I understand bands want to go back and make stuff sound better but unless you can do it right, leave the originals alone.

I'm starting to feel the same way. It's fine if it's an album I don't have and I want to get it anyway, but I think my days of re-buying the same album are pretty much over. Most of the time I can't tell the difference anyway. It just sounds louder to me.