The Heavy Metal discussion continued...

Getizzyback wrote:

For me there is 2 forms of music:

"Listenable"

and

"Unlistenable"

That's kinda how I am too.

It just so happens that I like metal the best.

but I like a lot of other stuff too. I don't give a rat's ass if someone calls what I listen to emo. If I like it - that's all that matters to me. I really don't give a dam what anyone thinks.

I put metal under the general umbrella of "rock n' roll". Different branches from the same rock tree seems about right to me. I think the fact that I'm a big fan of the different "genres" makes it a fairly easy and simple classification.

jstate wrote:

I put metal under the general umbrella of "rock n' roll". Different branches from the same rock tree seems about right to me. I think the fact that I'm a big fan of the different "genres" makes it a fairly easy and simple classification.

Same here.

Metallic Blaze wrote:

jstate wrote:

I put metal under the general umbrella of "rock n' roll". Different branches from the same rock tree seems about right to me. I think the fact that I'm a big fan of the different "genres" makes it a fairly easy and simple classification.

Same here.

YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!

T-Roy wrote:

Metallic Blaze wrote:

jstate wrote:

I put metal under the general umbrella of "rock n' roll". Different branches from the same rock tree seems about right to me. I think the fact that I'm a big fan of the different "genres" makes it a fairly easy and simple classification.

Same here.

YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!

Metallic Blaze wrote:

Getizzyback wrote:

For me there is 2 forms of music:

"Listenable"

and

"Unlistenable"

That's kinda how I am too.

It just so happens that I like metal the best.

but I like a lot of other stuff too. I don't give a rat's ass if someone calls what I listen to emo. If I like it - that's all that matters to me. I really don't give a dam what anyone thinks.

My categories are more specific:

"Stuff I like"

and

"Stuff I don't like"

I do believe that what we consider some of the most metallic music now (various types Symphonic metal) has often gotten quite a distance from it's rock roots. I think old symphonic prog ( bands like Zarathustra, Alphataurus, My Solid Ground, and Balleto Il Bronzo) may be as much of an influence on bands like Rhapsody or early Samael than rock bands were, if not more so.
Also I don't think that the evolution of metal is always as linear as we like to think it is, because a lot of influential musicians are also record collectors and sometimes incorporate long lost influences off the dusty shelves of time into their music. They aren't always building just on recent pop culture in a linear way. I think it's pretty well documented that people like Phil Anselmo, Lars Ulrich, Dave Grohl and others have borrowed influences from point A that had been lost at point B, and brought them back in at point C. So music is influenced by much more than recent popular performers and trends. I don't know for sure where people like Peter Tatgren or Samael or others got their symphonic influences from, but I do know that a lot of old symphonic prog does at least sound like it must have influenced recent symphonic metal in some way or another, it's hard to believe it's just coincidence. If anybody has tracked this I'd be interested in the story.
The point I'm trying to make here is that Metal as we know it in 2010 isn't always necessarily a form of Hard Rock; as Classical and Progressive influnces may even be more prominent than rock influences in many cases.

Rhapsody are Goblin fans, and everyone knows Mikael Akerfeldt is all about Camel and other assorted classic prog. I'm sure there's more, though I'm not sure how much it correlates in the same way. I know I don't want to oversimplify things..we like music, there are reasons we like it, giving them names or knowing more intrinsic facts about what makes it what it is, is only beneficial to the listener.

That's my contribution to this thread.

Also it's well known that people like Varg Vikerness chose to avoid rock influences in his music as much as possible (maybe for racist or nationalistic reasons of "purity"); and like it or not Burzum has been a huge influence on metal. This begs the question, is a band like Dimmu Borgir any kind of "hard rock" at all? I'm not sure, you tell me.

Temple of Blood wrote:

When I talk about people, I don't refer to them as "mammals". I talk about the specific type they are ... "people".

I'm, speechless.



Muddy Waters has a great song that goes something like this..."the Blues had a baby and they named it rock n' roll"....and so RNR had a baby and they named it Heavy Metal. Get off of your high chair, because it's all rock 'n roll to me to.

If your talking Black Metal, the band that has had arguably the greatest impact on them all Bathory sounds like great big loud dirty rock n' roll to me in the tradition Motorhead, Venom, Black Sabbath etc.

These bands who move to more ambient, atmospheric, classical etc sounds and influences become less Heavy Metal and therefore less Rock N' Roll, just look at a band like Ulver or as you pointed out Sahb Burzum!

Its Only Rock and Roll (But I Like It)

rattpoison wrote:

These bands who move to more ambient, atmospheric, classical etc sounds and influences become less Heavy Metal

Good to see you RP. The point about the heavier Black Metal though that is influenced by Wagner, Bach etc. is that a lot of people would consider it Metal at this time, which is what we are talking about. I'm just playing devil's advocate here (pun intended).

As to my other point (that the evolution of metal isn't always a linear one that takes place in the floodlights of pop culture); I remember something that you yourself may have said, that Buffalo wasn't well known enough in the USA to be an actual direct influence on anybody here until people like Chris Cornell dug their records up years later and made their influence more profound. Sorry if I'm misqouting you, but I seem to remember something like that. Thoughts?

Years ago, I watched an interview with Bob Segar and he said that heavy metal was just an extreme form of rock and roll, it follows the same musical patterns. Just my two cents.

SAHB Healer wrote:

As to my other point (that the evolution of metal isn't always a linear one that takes place in the floodlights of pop culture); I remember something that you yourself may have said, that Buffalo wasn't well known enough in the USA to be an actual direct influence on anybody here until people like Chris Cornell dug their records up years later and made their influence more profound. Sorry if I'm misqouting you, but I seem to remember something like that. Thoughts?

No doubt it doesn't follow some straight and narrow line like alot of people think, Black Sabbath being the start and all manner of Metal being an evolution of that.......definately not.

Buffalo is a good example of this, a band who did not listen to Black Sabbath but arrived at a similar sound at roughly the same time as Black Sabbath from the other side of the world, who were basically obscure and outside the known canon of Heavy Metal until Grunge and Stoner Rock bands of the late 80's/early 90's started heralding them as an influence. They're are plenty of well known bands who come up with some heavy metal sound who are not derived from this Black Sabbath line of Metal, Motorhead or AC/DC anyone.........or maybe they're just rock n' roll

It's all rock n roll to me. Some I like, some not so much.

I have an I-pod that's dedicated to what I consider the best of Hard Rock from 1990 or so until now. I know several Metal elitists that would deny that anything I've got on there is actual Metal, even though most of the music on the pod is actually heavier or faster than 70's Heavy Metal was. But I bet that if I put my headphones on random people on the street, 9 out of 10 would describe most of it as Heavy Metal.

Here are some of the albums that I've had arguments with people about, as to whether they are actually Metal or not.

Corrosion of Conformity- Deliverance
Danzig- III How The Gods Kill
Fireball Ministry- Their Rock is not Our Rock
Kyuss- Welcome To Sky Valley
Overkill- I Hear Black
Trouble- Manic Frustration
Witch- s/t

Believe it or not, I understand their point of view, even if I don't agree with it really.

SAHB Healer wrote:

I have an I-pod that's dedicated to what I consider the best of Hard Rock from 1990 or so until now. I know several Metal elitists that would deny that anything I've got on there is actual Metal, even though most of the music on the pod is actually heavier or faster than 70's Heavy Metal was. But I bet that if I put my headphones on random people on the street, 9 out of 10 would describe most of it as Heavy Metal.

Here are some of the albums that I've had arguments with people about, as to whether they are actually Metal or not.

Corrosion of Conformity- Deliverance
Danzig- III How The Gods Kill
Fireball Ministry- Their Rock is not Our Rock
Kyuss- Welcome To Sky Valley
Overkill- I Hear Black
Trouble- Manic Frustration
Witch- s/t

Believe it or not, I understand their point of view, even if I don't agree with it really.

everything you listed i still consider to be metal. f*ck the elitists.

mc666 wrote:

SAHB Healer wrote:

I have an I-pod that's dedicated to what I consider the best of Hard Rock from 1990 or so until now. I know several Metal elitists that would deny that anything I've got on there is actual Metal, even though most of the music on the pod is actually heavier or faster than 70's Heavy Metal was. But I bet that if I put my headphones on random people on the street, 9 out of 10 would describe most of it as Heavy Metal.

Here are some of the albums that I've had arguments with people about, as to whether they are actually Metal or not.

Corrosion of Conformity- Deliverance
Danzig- III How The Gods Kill
Fireball Ministry- Their Rock is not Our Rock
Kyuss- Welcome To Sky Valley
Overkill- I Hear Black
Trouble- Manic Frustration
Witch- s/t

Believe it or not, I understand their point of view, even if I don't agree with it really.

everything you listed i still consider to be metal. f*ck the elitists.

I agree. It's all metal.

Lemmy on the subject.

When asked if he has a problem with Motörhead being called a metal
band, he replied: "I do, because I come from way before Metal. I’m
playing Rock n’ Roll and I think Rock n’ Roll should be sacred – it is
to me. I don’t see why it should not be for everybody else."

Of the genre debate itself Lemmy was more forthright when Joel McIver spoke to him for an interview published in the January 2000 edition of Record Collector.
He asked him if he thought some people get confused between hard rock
and soft metal and all the other categories. Lemmy replied "Cunt metal?
Spunk metal? Left-handed metal? Right-handed metal? Upwardly-mobile
metal? This term "heavy metal" is only rock'n'roll anyway, because
metal bands are the logical successors to Eddie Cochran and Buddy Holly"

Chairman_Smith wrote:

Lemmy on the subject.

When asked if he has a problem with Motörhead being called a metal
band, he replied: "I do, because I come from way before Metal. I’m
playing Rock n’ Roll and I think Rock n’ Roll should be sacred – it is
to me. I don’t see why it should not be for everybody else."

Of the genre debate itself Lemmy was more forthright when Joel McIver spoke to him for an interview published in the January 2000 edition of Record Collector.
He asked him if he thought some people get confused between hard rock
and soft metal and all the other categories. Lemmy replied "Cunt metal?
Spunk metal? Left-handed metal? Right-handed metal? Upwardly-mobile
metal? This term "heavy metal" is only rock'n'roll anyway, because
metal bands are the logical successors to Eddie Cochran and Buddy Holly"

That's funny how Lemmy went off on those genres.

I agree with him though. It's all rock and roll!!! *BUT I LIKE IT*

SAHB Healer wrote:

Here are some of the albums that I've had arguments with people about, as to whether they are actually Metal or not.

Corrosion of Conformity- Deliverance
Danzig- III How The Gods Kill
Fireball Ministry- Their Rock is not Our Rock
Kyuss- Welcome To Sky Valley
Overkill- I Hear Black
Trouble- Manic Frustration
Witch- s/t

I think you should stop hanging out with these people if they don't consider these bands/albums Metal. Overkill not metal? WTF?

Quote :

everything you listed i still consider to be metal. f*ck the elitists.

Agreed!

Or as my Dad still calls all of it...Acid Rock. And it's all Saytonic.

scottmitchell74 wrote:

Or as my Dad still calls all of it...Acid Rock. And it's all Saytonic.

Our poor parents dude!

Chairman_Smith wrote:

Lemmy replied "Cunt metal?
Spunk metal? Left-handed metal? Right-handed metal? Upwardly-mobile
metal? This term "heavy metal" is only rock'n'roll anyway, because
metal bands are the logical successors toEddie Cochran and Buddy Holly."

Brilliant! Lemmy rules!