The Book of Heavy Metal...Metal or Not?

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

If I am not mistaken, Testament early on claimed Aerosmith as one of their biggest influences. I remember reading a story in some magazine where one of the band members credited "Rocks" as being one of the defining heavy metal band.

I've never heard any of them say that and if you actually pick apart their music, early demos, etc. there is nary an AEROSMITH-ish riff in any of their original material. I'd like to hear which specific musical elements you think required AEROSMITH for inspiration. Their primary influences were clearly METALLICA and SLAYER.

So, by your definition, the only way one can be directly influenced is when they incorporate that band's sound? The guys in Metallica like bands like UFO, early Scorpions, and Deep Purple, but I don't hear any of that sound in Metallica's music when they first started out.

Temple of Blood wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

In the 70's there is no doubt the fans and media called them America's heavy metal band. I just cannot see writing a definitive book on heavy metal and not include what was going on in the U.S. during the 70's. It most certainly is a part of the history, even if people now would no longer label these bands heavy metal.

By your logic then you would need to include Slipknot, Limp Bizkit, etc. because that is what the fans and media were saying at one time and it's "part of history".

It just seems like if you are taking that much time talking about things that aren't metal that you're not spending enough time talking about the real thing: what it really is and what it has been doing. Is this book gonna be 300 pages or 3000?

I think the origins of the genre is just as important as the genre itself. If I were to write an autobiography of my own band, I would certainly include how we all grew up in the band, even though those things are not connected directly to the band.

Frankly, I have been offered the opportunity to write a book. I'm not sure I am going to take on the challenge or not, as I currently have a lot on my plate. However, these were some of the questions I have been pondering, so I thought I'd get others opinions.

Of course a majority of the book will be on the classic bands: Judas Priest, Fates Warning, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Armored Saint, the NWOBHM movement, Twisted Sister, Anvil, Saxon, Diamond Head, Riot, etc.

As for Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Van Halen, etc. In my opinion, they are important chapters in such a book. I still can't understand how anyone could consider the European bands such as Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Rainbow, UFO, Motorhead, Judas Priest, etc. and not consider what was going on in the U.S. at the same time musically. Bands like Aerosmith, Van Halen, etc. gave birth to Quiet Riot, Steeler, Stryper, Ratt, etc. It's all connected IMO.

As for Slipknot, K0rn, etc. I'm not real sure. I've not heard enough of their music to decide. What I have heard did nothing for me, so I didn't investigate further. Again, I do think they are worth a mention, even if it's just a nominal one to compare them to what I would consider real heavy metal at this point in the history of the genre.

manny wrote:

OK ToB who would you include in your book of metal?

I agree that a proto-metal section would be very important, with some specific musical examples of influences and quotes from the influenced musicians.

But then after that:
70s: BLACK SABBATH, JUDAS PRIEST, etc.
80s: METALLICA, MEGADETH, SLAYER, etc.
90s: CANNIBAL CORPSE, SUFFOCATION, EMPEROR, etc.
00s: ? (I'd have to really give this some thought)

I also think there are many hard rock bands who occasionally wrote songs that were metal but if it doesn't make up the majority of the band's material then I don't consider them to be a metal band overall.

Thank you for answering my question ToB, your answer for the 90's bands where surprising ( to me anyway) and I agree that does bands are very important.

As for me, I would start with the 60's proto bands such as Jimi Hendrix, The Who and The Kinks would have a chapter.

Blue Cheer and Iron Butterfly would be included, and after that I would include Aerosmith, Alice Cooper, and of course Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple and Black Sabbath.

manny wrote:

Thank you for answering my question ToB, your answer for the 90's bands where surprising ( to me anyway) and I agree that does bands are very important.

As for me, I would start with the 60's proto bands such as Jimi Hendrix, The Who and The Kinks would have a chapter.

Blue Cheer and Iron Butterfly would be included, and after that I would include Aerosmith, Alice Cooper, and of course Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple and Black Sabbath.

Good call on Alice Cooper - I meant to add him in to my list, but forgot!

I would post if it wouldn't make people angry I would be happy to help in email or something though, I've spent a lot of time with this, I think it can be fascinating.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I would post if it wouldn't make people angry I would be happy to help in email or something though, I've spent a lot of time with this, I think it can be fascinating.

Post it anyway, nobody is angry, we are all having a friendly discussion.

Post away OCI. I doubt you'll see much anger here.

There's anger and childish insults. You're wise to stay away. People with fragile worldviews can't handle being questioned.

Do you mean a history of Heavy Metal bands, or a history of how Heavy Metal got started?

manny wrote:

I do not think anyone said you don't like Aerosmith.

snooloui wrote:

I think plenty of metal bands have been influenced by Aerosmith and whilst they might not be considered metal now, they could easily have been at the time. You can't just dismiss them based on the fact that you don't like them.

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And been influenced by a band does mean you want to be a carbon copy of your influences.

And I never said that. But there is not one AEROSMITH riff, lead lick, vocal style, or anything else in TESTAMENT's early material that I can hear. And if someone here can hear it then please pinpoint it and let me know where it is.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Because those are hard rock bands and not heavy metal ones. But we've said this before so I am not sure why you are posting this topic again really.

...and yet, you set the tone with comments like this. Please, stop playing the victim. Do you even look at what you type? How about simply stating back to Ult: I know we've covered this topic before, but we'll have to agree to disagree regarding Aerosmith being considered a metal band back in the day. Instead, you bait everybody with your own harsh rhetoric. This isn't the first topic that has been talked about multiple times, and since it USUALLY provokes some interesting discussions, then I find nothing wrong with going back to such a conversation. We need to also keep in mind, that there are new members at this site, who aren't aware that there was once a discussion, because the thread titles are so ambiguous.

manny wrote:

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

I would post if it wouldn't make people angry I would be happy to help in email or something though, I've spent a lot of time with this, I think it can be fascinating.

Post it anyway, nobody is angry, we are all having a friendly discussion.

Exactly! a friendly discussion!!! You know, Ult want sto know what WE think, not a dogmatic "I am right, you are wrong". So don't worry about it!!!!

metalinmyveins wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

Because those are hard rock bands and not heavy metal ones. But we've said this before so I am not sure why you are posting this topic again really.

...and yet, you set the tone with comments like this. Please, stop playing the victim. Do you even look at what you type? How about simply stating back to Ult: I know we've covered this topic before, but we'll have to agree to disagree regarding Aerosmith being considered a metal band back in the day. Instead, you bait everybody with your own harsh rhetoric. This isn't the first topic that has been talked about multiple times, and since it USUALLY provokes some interesting discussions, then I find nothing wrong with going back to such a conversation. We need to also keep in mind, that there are new members at this site, who aren't aware that there was once a discussion, because the thread titles are so ambiguous.

Great post!!!! It is a discussion - no one has come out and said Temple Of Blood sucks and can't play in time. Instead, you have fans of your band on this board. This is a discuss, if you disagree, it's OK, it's not a matter or life and death!!!!

Temple of Blood wrote:

There's anger and childish insults. You're wise to stay away. People with fragile worldviews can't handle being questioned.

Yet you are still here.

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no one has come out and said Temple Of Blood sucks and can't play in time

Oh yes they have. Just not in this certain thread on this certain day. But it's not too late and it wouldn't surprise me if people did it to OCI after he skewers their sacred cows from their precious memories of yesteryear. That's the only way some people can have a debate, by launching into personal attacks.

manny wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

There's anger and childish insults. You're wise to stay away. People with fragile worldviews can't handle being questioned.

Yet you are still here.

I don't have a fragile worldview and I can defend mine on controversial topics without personally attacking people. I can take jabs from jerks on the net with their cheaps "LOLs!!!111" and such at my expense more than some people could.

Temple of Blood wrote:

manny wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

There's anger and childish insults. You're wise to stay away. People with fragile worldviews can't handle being questioned.

Yet you are still here.

I don't have a fragile worldview and I can defend mine on controversial topics without personally attacking people.

We are talking about music, loud rock n roll, heavy metal, not the politics of dancing, fragile egos, religion or any matters that concern world views, we are talking about HEAVY METAL!!!!! Now let's get back to the topic at hand.

Testament covering two Aerosmith songs speaks for itself, does n't ToB?

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sacred cows from their precious memories of yesteryear

What? Did I just enter Bizarro world?

I believe I already addressed it. They like AEROSMITH. Great. I do too.

I like a lot of bands from MANY genres. There isn't a single riff in any of my band's songs that reflect many of those artists though.

Point to some individual trait in TESTAMENT's music that must've come from AEROSMITH and I'll reconsider my view.

SpectreFate wrote:

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sacred cows from their precious memories of yesteryear

What? Did I just enter Bizarro world?

I don't think I have any "sacred cows". There are some bands that I hold in high esteem from the past but I don't see them as beyond criticism or something.

My favorite band is JUDAS PRIEST but if someone here posted a lot of reasons they didn't like them then I wouldn't respond with some sort of personal attack like "yer jus dum and mad that you arent gudder than thim. Lol11111!!!111111". In fact, I might be inclined to agree with them. There are things about even JP that I think are ultra-lame.

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Outside of this board, I don't know anyone these days who actually considers AEROSMITH to be a metal band, so I wouldn't include them at all. And I don't think they've influenced any metal bands to any considerable degree either so I don't think their inclusion is warranted.

I remember James Hetfield saying how he was a huge Aerosmith fan at the MTV Icon awards show. He said Joe Perry was his favorite guitarist growing up.

I may disagree with some of things ToB brings up but he does bring up an important point and the problem with trying to write a book on the history of a genre that has been around this long, the genre has splintered to so many sub genres and fans can hardly agree what is metal and what isn't metal.

At my age, growing up reading magazines like Creem, Circus, and Hit Parader, for example Aerosmith and AC/DC where labeled as metal bands and that is the way I see them.

If you are 16 today, I am not sure if bands such as Judas Priest and Deep Purple would classify as metal considering more modern bands such as Slipknot, Children of Bodom, etc have so little in common with the roots of the genre.

Testament did a cover of Aerosmith's Draw the Line... They were also fans of the Scorpions.

You'd have to include the building blocks of metal. I was just listening to The Who this last weekend and thinking how much metal bands owe them in structure. Ult, good call on Sir Lord Baltimore, they need more recognition. I'd include everything, my book would be huge. And i'd be sure to point out that "thebandthatshallneverbementionedagain" and Slipknot are metal bands but they still suck.