Let's Be Honest: The Drum Work On And Justice For All Is...

Phenomenal.

Not that we need another Metallica related thread, but it's 5am right now and I've got this sucker cranked. So I've been inspired to give Lars props, for once.

Lars gets a bad rap—occasionally. He does come off like a pompous douche, and when you're in a studio with a large group off people and you're wearing a bathrobe, you probably are a pompous douche. But let's be honest, douchiness aside, his drumming on ...And Justice For All is just brilliant.

I know a lot of people say he's crap and always has been, but I'm not buying it. Sure, now in his elder (rich boy) years, his creative flare is on the decline. But on Justice, the dude was in peak form. There's so much personality on these tracks. His fills are precise and unique, they're not the kind of fills you'd expect at all. No standard drum rolls all the time, but fills that a far more progressive and have much more flare than he's ever done before or since.

I know most will probably scoff at this notion, but turn that album on and just focus on the drums, particularly on "Harvester of Sorrow" and "Frayed Ends of Sanity," if not every song—the little bursts of double-bass, the random snare or tom hit, or a seemingly out of place drum roll. It is one of the best drumming performances on a metal album ever, if you ask me. My opinion, of course, but I can't understand where this "Lars is crap" stuff comes from, at least when it's said as a blanket, career-encompassing comment.

The dude was simply brilliant, flawless, on ...And Justice For All.

I've always agreed and so have most of my offline friends. It really is unbelievable how good the drums on that record are.

It was flawless because it was mechanized.

he was good on justice but there was alot of editing and cut and paste to get him to sound that good. same with the black album.
but lars now is just a joke.

I agree that the drumming was great on Justice.I alway liked the production values on it as well.In a great system the bass drum has one hell of a kick.

I thought the drumming on the first four Metallica albums were quite good, but I agree that the drumming on ..Justice is very good.

The drum work is good, but the mix is horrible. The bass drum is too far out front & you cant hear poor Jason at all.

he's a very capable drummer

It's great. I agree with you Eyesore.

And Kirk is the star of "Kill Em All".

That's why I get sick of the Kirk/Lars bashing and James praise.

If Lars is the most overrated drummer in metal than certainly James is by the far the most overrated singer.

Hamer12 wrote:

The drum work is good, but the mix is horrible. The bass drum is too far out front & you cant hear poor Jason at all.

I heard a rumor at one point that Jason's parts weren't even used in the final mix...just the guitars. Which I always found pretty stupid considering how much ass he kicked on the $5.98 EP. Whether that's true or not you definitely can't hear any bass on that album.

As for Lars...he's not the worst...he's not near the best.

You're right Lars is a douche. But I always have liked Metallica's music at least up until St. Anger. I tried to like it and gave several chances to grow on me but it never has and I feel never will. And Justice for All is a great album IMO, and it has some killer drumming.

One thing kind of off the subject was the some kind of monster. Watching these guys get in touch with their feminine side really knocked them off their throne for me. Freakin' cry babys. Lars saying he is going after his fans to to sue them for trading his music kind of pissed me off too. I have spent thousands of $$ on concerts, T-shirts, and records, tapes & CDs by these guys as have millions of their fans and he has the nerve to say he is going to sue me for turning some one on to his music and possibly gaining another spending fan. I don't think so, no more cash from me Lars, ever.

detuned wrote:

I heard a rumor at one point that Jason's parts weren't even used in the final mix...just the guitars.

Jason's in there, he's just buried. If you screw around with the equalizer settings on your stereo you'll uncover him.

Seriously, the production/mix on JUSTICE is godawful. Very thin and dry sounding. When I upgraded my old cassette to a CD some years back I was like, "wow, so it always sounded that bad." Over the years I had just assumed that my tape was worn down from overplay! (I had the same experience when I upgraded Twisted Sister's STAY HUNGRY to CD too, now that I think about it.)

I was actually blasting this one last night, the drums are incredible...but something still keeps me from really really liking Metallica. My conclusion is Metallica never had punk rock attitude which is a major reason I like Thrash...and James Hetfields voice.

As for the overall mix...one of the beefiest I have ever heard, definately far from thin.

Metallica didn't have a punk rock attitude because 90% of their influences were the NWOBHM bands....which were a backlash response to the punk aesthetic. But then again you don't hear much punk in Slayer either (mostly Venom). I think thrash works with or without the hardcore edge.

Stender wrote:

As for the overall mix...one of the beefiest I have ever heard, definately far from thin.

Your definition of "beefy" must be different from mine.

you have to understand why they drown jason out tho.
CLiff just died and was just replaced by a guy half as good as him,
all of the guys were still recovering and jason was like the new kid,
and was probably not listened to a whole lot and didnt have a whole lotta
input on things.

detuned wrote:

Metallica didn't have a punk rock attitude because 90% of their influences were the NWOBHM bands....which were a backlash response to the punk aesthetic. But then again you don't hear much punk in Slayer either (mostly Venom). I think thrash works with or without the hardcore edge.

Most of thrash comes from NWOBHM influences IMO.

spectrefate wrote:

It was flawless because it was mechanized.

A drum machine, huh?

INVADERS wrote:

he was good on justice but there was alot of editing and cut and paste to get him to sound that good. same with the black album.
but lars now is just a joke.

Editing? How so? This album didn't come out last year. Everyone says this sort of thing. On what authority? We've all heard this stuff—it was a drum machine, it was a session drummer, Lars didn't even play on any of the first four records, blah blah blah.

Fat Freddy wrote:

Stender wrote:

As for the overall mix...one of the beefiest I have ever heard, definately far from thin.

Your definition of "beefy" must be different from mine.

I actually don't agree with all the production hate either. The only song that sounds somewhat wrong to me is "Dyer's Eve," that one sounds like it was pulled from a differet session, one of their standard "not produced" tracks. But overall, I think the production is fine. And I actually love how that kick drum is so resonant. I don't find any problems with the drum mix.

As for the burying Jason in the mix, it was stupid and childish. No matter the reason, it was stupid. Yeah, Cliff died, but Jason didn't kill him! And this wasn't Jason's album, it was their album. So they shoot themselves in the foot to take out some sort of unjustified hazing on the new guy? Pffft! Childish.

Eyesore wrote:

I actually don't agree with all the production hate either.

I dunno, JUSTICE just doesn't have that same "warmth" to its sound that, say, MASTER OF PUPPETS or RIDE THE LIGHTNING did.

Fat Freddy wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

I actually don't agree with all the production hate either.

I dunno, JUSTICE just doesn't have that same "warmth" to its sound that, say, MASTER OF PUPPETS or RIDE THE LIGHTNING did.

Well, it's a very tight and stiff recording. But bad? I just don't hear it. It just lost it's old school, dudes-in-a-garage sound.

Eyesore wrote:

Fat Freddy wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

I actually don't agree with all the production hate either.

I dunno, JUSTICE just doesn't have that same "warmth" to its sound that, say, MASTER OF PUPPETS or RIDE THE LIGHTNING did.

Well, it's a very tight and stiff recording. But bad? I just don't hear it. It just lost it's old school, dudes-in-a-garage sound.

"Tight and stiff" is a good way to describe it. I think you hit the nail on the head about the "garage" sound, mind you I LIKED that "dudes-in-a-garage" sound!!

ultmetal wrote:

I thought the drumming on the first four Metallica albums were quite good, but I agree that the drumming on ..Justice is very good.

I agree.

Eyesore wrote:

spectrefate wrote:

It was flawless because it was mechanized.

A drum machine, huh?

About a decade ago, a drummer buddy of mine had told me that a majority Lars's drumming had been manipulated in the studio, specially on AJFA. I have no reason to doubt this, I don't think personally he could have pulled off that kind of drumming without some help. Dave Lombardo he's not.