Changing of the Guards

So, I know this is old news, but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject.

Mike Portnoy left Dream Theater and they got a new drummer to replace him. Though, Mike is no longer in the new band, in which he left Dream Theater for, DT replaced him nonetheless.

So... my wonder of you, my fellow music lovers, is this.

How do you feel when a band changes a major player in the band?

Me, I am okay with it all the way until I hear the last song on the latest album with said new players. Personally a band is made up of a unique sound all their own due to the players involved. Sometimes, losing those players can really change the sound of that band. Now, not always for the worst, but some times not for the good. A small example of a band I enjoy is Nightwish. They switched out Tarja Turunen for Anette Olzon. Though I enjoy Nightwish, and I think Tarja can sing, there is something about hearing high vocals for so long. I love the sound they had. With the switch to Anette, I wasn't really a fan of her voice with Nightwish songs. I did enjoy the new direction (Musically) of the band and her voice matched well with it. I just couldn't get into her voice with the old stuff. Nightwish should have changed their name at this point, since Tarja had been the "Voice" of the band for so long that now they changed it.

It is like having a mother for 25 years of your life only to see your parents divorce and your mother marries another man. In turn changing her name to his last name. The dynamic of your family is different.

Now, Portnoy wasn't so much a vocal voice, but his drums were the signature sound that flowed through DT. There is no way a new drummer is going to sound like Mike Portnoy, as much as Anette sounds nothing like Tarja. Though, I've heard that Dream Theater is going to go back into the direction of "Images and Words" (I LOVE THAT ALBUM), and that Mike pushed for the change in sound to what Dream Theater had become. So only time will tell. But if, in the end, the new album ends on that final song and they sound nothing like Dream Theater anymore... they should change the name and allow it to end with grace. Portnoy started that band, and with him out of it, it really is not DT anymore.

Okay, yes, Rudess came in and really upped the keys in DT. BUT, like I said, I gave it till the ending of "Scenes from a memory" and loved it and felt it added to DT. So if this new drummer brings their A game and moves DT in a forward motion, all the power to keeping the name strong and going. Needless to say, the other keyboard players were not major parts of that band. Yeah Moore wrote some songs (good ones) but he never felt a part of that band. Or so he has said. So changing the voice of the keys were not a big deal. And each keyboard player lead to a better sound.

We can only see...

So again... "How do you feel when a band changes a major player in the band?"

Peace in harmony, until again...
~ Telmorn Altayon

Telmorn Altayon wrote:

So, I know this is old news, but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject.

...

"How do you feel when a band changes a major player in the band?"

...

On a very general note - I don't like it. If we are talking about the main songwriters then you might as well be listening to a whole different band except they're using the name of your favorite band. The best example I can think of here is Sepultura - the two main songwriters who gave its band the real identity are no longer present in Sepultura. The band exists in name but no one who formed it is part of it anymore - the people behind it now are struggling to keep the band's legacy alive in some fashion and had it not been for Max and Igor the remaining personnel would not have a stage to stand on and play any songs. Without Max and Igor the band has become a parody of itself... at best an over-glorified tribute band.

Max's departure after Roots was hard enough to accept - with his departure he took away half of the band's sound and identity. With Igor's departure however the whole of Sepultura's identity disappeared.

Then there are some of the obvious examples like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. Although neither Dickinson nor Halford were founding members, and although neither of them were solely or even primarily involved with the songwriting, both gave their respective bands a certain definable sound and quality. Their departures left a void in those bands that couldn't be filled until their imminent return. I say imminent because it's improbable either Judas Priest or Iron Maiden could have continued on without them.

Both Maiden albums with Blaze and the Priest ones with Ripper generated lukewarm responses from the fans. Those albums found very few fans, with most feeling bemused and frustrated at the change of personnel.

The situation might have been different had either Dickinson or Halford sung on only a handful of commercially successful albums. It's likely fans may have been more tolerant hearing new singers had those personnel changes occurred much earlier on in the careers of Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. Indeed, one could say Paul Dianno was a great fit for the first two Iron Maiden albums yet hardly anyone longs for his voice nowadays. The first two Maiden albums are largely appreciated from a historical and at best nostalgic point of view but very few would actually prefer a return of Dianno (or Al Atkins for Judas Priest).

Examples where personnel changes, even significant ones, do not affect wide fan base perceptions is where the fans are already accustomed to the band having a revolving door of musicians. Megadeth is a prime example - indeed Mustaine remained the main songwriter throughout the band's career but early on nearly every album saw a new line-up. Marty Friedman of course had a strong impact on the band's sound yet hardly anyone seems to miss him nowadays especially as we've all learned by now that he's no longer interested in playing metal and would rather play J-pop. The point is that when you're a fan of a band where every album will have more or less a new line-up - as long as the main songwriter remains - you're less likely to worry about who the drummer, bass player or lead guitarist will be.

If they change the main songwriter, then they are no longer the same band.

Or if they change the member with all the appeal and they are left with generic players, then they are no longer the same band.

Portnoy is neither the main songwriter nor the member with all the appeal in DT do his removal shouldn't slow them down much.

Six pages of thoughts on this subject:

http://www.heartofmetal.net/t14106-mike-portnoy-quits-dream-theater-wtf

Of course it's a drag when key memebers are changed. And in most cases the bands would be better of changing their name. However, if they did so, they would have to start over fresh, and I know of very few established bands that could change the name, and still pack the same crowds, or sell as many albums. Case in point: Jon Oliva's Pain. He would have sold tons more under the Savatage name.

Alex Dee Rokket wrote:

Telmorn Altayon wrote:

So, I know this is old news, but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject.

...

"How do you feel when a band changes a major player in the band?"

...

On a very general note - I don't like it. If we are talking about the main songwriters then you might as well be listening to a whole different band except they're using the name of your favorite band.

I agree with you there. All very good, strong points. Thanks for that intense response. I enjoyed the read.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Portnoy is neither the main songwriter nor the member with all the appeal in DT do his removal shouldn't slow them down much.

I may be wrong, and I am not correcting you, I am just throwing in a thought here. Didn't Portnoy write most of the lyrics to songs. More so after the "Images and Words" album? He also was a megaforce in the arrangements too. I remember reading something about John and he use to really workout the songs, then the rest of the band would come in and create the sound of Dream Theater.

Eyesore wrote:

Six pages of thoughts on this subject:

http://www.heartofmetal.net/t14106-mike-portnoy-quits-dream-theater-wtf

Oh I know it was already talked about with Dream Theater. I just used that as an example. My main thought in this thread was more about when main writers leave, or the "voice" of the band leaves, how does one feel. It is less about Mike and DT than it is about the changing of the guard in general. A few bands, as of late, have disbanded from the original members and I just wanted to start a conversation up about that particular subject.

kmorg wrote:

Of course it's a drag when key memebers are changed. And in most cases the bands would be better of changing their name. However, if they did so, they would have to start over fresh, and I know of very few established bands that could change the name, and still pack the same crowds, or sell as many albums. Case in point: Jon Oliva's Pain. He would have sold tons more under the Savatage name.

Excatly.

I don't mind it as long as the music is still good. Helloween for example had many band members come and go but with every release they just kept getting better ( I know except for Chameleon blah blah blah). Accept has a new vocalist and people seem to have gotten past the UDO doesn't want to do that band anymore and they have welcomed the new vocalist. Also it looks like Kamelot will be suffering the same thing soon with Khan. It already doesn't seem like he will be back with Kamelot any time soon, but we'll have to wait and see what happens with that.

[quote="Phoenix Reign Drummer"]

kmorg wrote:

Also it looks like Kamelot will be suffering the same thing soon with Khan. It already doesn't seem like he will be back with Kamelot any time soon, but we'll have to wait and see what happens with that.

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's silly. He makes that band awesome. Wait, the music is awesome too... but Kaan... KAAN DAMN IT!

Kahn with an H

Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote:

kmorg wrote:

Of course it's a drag when key memebers are changed. And in most cases the bands would be better of changing their name. However, if they did so, they would have to start over fresh, and I know of very few established bands that could change the name, and still pack the same crowds, or sell as many albums. Case in point: Jon Oliva's Pain. He would have sold tons more under the Savatage name.

Excatly.

I don't mind it as long as the music is still good. Helloween for example had many band members come and go but with every release they just kept getting better ( I know except for Chameleon blah blah blah). Accept has a new vocalist and people seem to have gotten past the UDO doesn't want to do that band anymore and they have welcomed the new vocalist. Also it looks like Kamelot will be suffering the same thing soon with Khan. It already doesn't seem like he will be back with Kamelot any time soon, but we'll have to wait and see what happens with that.

Exactly! I also feel that way when a band goes in a different sound direction. If I like the music I will still listen to them

Most of the time I don't think it matters. Look at Napalm Death for example. There are no original members and they've been a band for a long time.

When a member leaves, maybe the bands want to change the style or sound a bit. That's happened a LOT. Yet no one ever seems to get too upset over it.

I suppose it does come down to that. If the music is still good, then the name should change. I mean, to me I associate the music with the band's name. If I picked up a Nightwish album and they no longer did symphonic style music and it turned into a punk band... yeah, I don't think I would be buying that album. Even if all the members were the same.

But... who here would listen to Ozzy, or Kiss, or Black Sabbath if ... Ozzy left the band, Kiss got people to play their younger selves and Tony decided never to write again for that band again?

All 3 of those examples violate my aforementioned band member replacement rules.

I dont mind changing members as much as I major style changes. If a band sounds different with new members fine - but if its a drastic change in style - form a new band.

For me, I guess it really depends on my fondness of the band.

Accept with a new singer was fine, but when it was rumored that Aerosmith was gonna carry-on without Steven Tyler, I found that to be unacceptable. It took me a long time to warm-up to Van Hagar and I'm still not all that fond of Brian Johnson in AC/DC. But I liked Motley Crue with John Corabi almost immediately. And that was a case of band style change as well.

I should say that it depends on how much of the sound the band changes. I don;t think its necessary for a band to change names all the time, but I do think that bands should stick to as close musically as to what made people fans of their band.

Lurideath wrote:

I should say that it depends on how much of the sound the band changes. I don;t think its necessary for a band to change names all the time, but I do think that bands should stick to as close musically as to what made people fans of their band.

My favorite example is Holy soldier. They changed their sound completely in favor of modern 'rock' but still went under the HS moniker.

Temple Of Blood wrote:

Portnoy is neither the main songwriter nor the member with all the appeal in DT do his removal shouldn't slow them down much.

Are you kidding me? Portnoy and Petrucci did nearly everything musically in that band. From lyrics to arrangements to producing to doing vocals on a few albums, Portnoy was not "just" DT's drummer. Portnoy and Petrucci were the Van Halen brothers of DT in a musical sense.

He was the face and voice of the band...he was the one on stage pumping up the crowd (seen them twice and Portnoy works the crowd moreso than anyone else on the stage). He may not have been the frontman, but he played and interacted with the crowd like he was...he was much more of a showman than LaBrie.

If DT rides the wave without him, it's on the back of a lot of work he did.