Influence of the vocalist on the band

It's whoever the main songwriter is. This is the person who is not replaceable.

Case in point: METAL CHURCH has had 3 similar-sounding vocalists and it is the songwriting that has given each album of the band its identity.

Your Priest example doesn't make any sense because they have been changing styles their whole career, even with Halford in the band.

I agree with both Temple and Gilbert. A vocalist can and does give a band their identity. A charismatic vocalist can take an average band much higher, whereas a great band of musicians with a bland vocalist will usually seem bland.

I started listening to death metal in the 80s with bands like Napalm Death and Death. I've found over the years that I've grown tired of death metal vocals, not because I don't like them, but because they lack diversity, charisma and distinction. Many times it's hard to tell one band from the other. All genres have their cookie cutter clones, but even in a genre as non-diverse as power metal, the vocalists in the band can give that band a distinct sound.

However, I also agree that the songwriter in the band is what keeps the bands' sound. The Metal Church example is a good one. Judas Priest had already begun to go for a harsher sound with Painkiller, so Jugulator was just the next step from that. Ripper did change the band's sound some, but it wasn't just him, it was Tipton's songwriting.

A vocalist has a huge impact on a band's identity and sometimes career, when Ronnie James Dio replaced Ozzy Osbourne the change was very noticeable, not only due to different styles that both vocalist have, but also Dio was already accomplished songwriter. When Dio left and Ian Gillan came in, the sound of Black Sabbbath changed again due to the different vocal style of Ian Gillan.

The songwriter of the band is what helps retain a band's sound but it is the vocalist who sells the songs, Queen for example are a great band , and all four members were songwriters and had all written hit singles. Paul Rodgers a great vocalist and songwriter is no match for Freddie Mercury in terms of stage presence.

PRONG is a great band and never had anything but bland vocals. Same with VIO-LENCE.

Songwriting >>>> vocalist's ability

The vocalist from STEELHEART is one of the best ever, but they had tons of mediocre songwriting and that is the biggest reason they were never a contender and their music didn't age well.

Quote :

When Ripper owens joined, the whole style changed from pure power/speed metal, to a rawer/harsher style...

That entire album, lyrics and all, was written before Ripper ever joined Priest...

I love great vocalists, it makes a great song greater and it makes a mediocre song great. I always look for songwriting first before a vocalist. If it doesnt have melody or is memorable I really dont go back to it. But if it has both well thats perfect!!

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Quote :

When Ripper owens joined, the whole style changed from pure power/speed metal, to a rawer/harsher style...

That entire album, lyrics and all, was written before Ripper ever joined Priest...

True ... and good point.

Even "Demolition" was written almost entirely without his input.

it's both the musicains and the vocalist. its all about the chemistry of the band.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Shawn Of Fire wrote:

Quote :

When Ripper owens joined, the whole style changed from pure power/speed metal, to a rawer/harsher style...

That entire album, lyrics and all, was written before Ripper ever joined Priest...

True ... and good point.

Even "Demolition" was written almost entirely without his input.

Exactly. Now, that's not to say it would have sounded 100% the same with a different singer, I'm just saying that Ripper didn't have any influence on the actual direction of the material...he just affected the vibe on the final outcome.

Isn't the songwriter supposed to consider the vocalist's capacities and weaknesses, when writing the songs???? Doesn't it mean that the vocalist will have a huge impact and will eventually cause the songwriter to reconsider some of his notes????

Gilbert wrote:

Isn't the songwriter supposed to consider the vocalist's capacities and weaknesses, when writing the songs???? Doesn't it mean that the vocalist will have a huge impact and will eventually cause the songwriter to reconsider some of his notes????

The answer is yes, yes and yes.

Which would lead me to proposing the following topic : best metal singers of all time...

To me it's a case by case basis.

Take King Crimson for example; over the course of their first 4 albums they had 3 different vocalists...however all the albums still sounded like King Crimson and there wasn't a large departure in style. Then they changed vocalists again to John Wetton, and in this case they also changed the instrumentaion of the band and the sound changed. Then when they reformed in the 1980's they had another vocalist & instrumentation change when Adrien Belew joined. If you compare Crimson albums from 1969, 1974 & 1980...they sound like 3 different bands, but they still sound like "King Crimson".

Gilbert wrote:

Isn't the songwriter supposed to consider the vocalist's capacities and weaknesses, when writing the songs???? Doesn't it mean that the vocalist will have a huge impact and will eventually cause the songwriter to reconsider some of his notes????

I think if the music is written first (which I think in almost all cases it is) then the vocalist decides what kinds of lyrics/melodies/rhythms they would use to feed off the energy of the music. That's what I do and what I hear from pretty much every singer.

Gilbert wrote:

Isn't the songwriter supposed to consider the vocalist's capacities and weaknesses, when writing the songs???? Doesn't it mean that the vocalist will have a huge impact and will eventually cause the songwriter to reconsider some of his notes????

Sometimes...but when the material is already written and the singer just has to sing it, he'll sing it his way and in that way influence it, but he had no impact on the musical direction.

Now, when a singer is in place the writer will write with his voice in mind...when there's no singer at the beginning a certain style vocalist may be in mind and sometimes that can affect the writer's choices.

Everybody has made valid points, Genesis is another example, when Phil Collins left the band, Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks had written the material already when Ray Wilson came in, I donot know how much if any input Ray Wilson contributed to the album but due to his bluesier style of singing it effected the way songs are sung as opposed if Phil collins had done them and if they had continued with Wilson it would have become a different band.

I don't agree that the vocalist is the main influence of the band, but a vocalist can either make or break them. The main guy(s) is/are the main songwriter(s).

Usually one of the main songwriters in a band are the vocalist.

Max cavalera is the best exemple to my approach: he gave Soulfly and Cavalera Conspiracy the true sepultura sound. And to be honest, the new Sepultura line-up retains nothing but the name. The sound is within Soulfly and Cavalera Conspiracy. And these are the bands i like now.