Is DLR era Van Halen Metal?

The problem with threads like this is that most fans..especially young fans cant see past the last few years of metal...look at some of the bands that are considered metal today...to me bands like Godsmack and slipknot are not metal.. but bands like Kiss, saxon, aerosmith, AC/DC and even the sweet are heavy metal... here are a few other heavy metal albums that came out the same year as Van Halen 1..are these metal bands..absolutely...

Thin Lizzy - Live and Dangerous
UFO - Obsession
Whitesnake - Snakebite
Whitesnake - Trouble
Y&T - Struck Down
AC/DC - Powerage
AC/DC - If You Want Blood You've Got It
Alice Cooper - From the Inside
Black Sabbath - Never Say Die!
Blue Öyster Cult - Some Enchanted Evening
Budgie - Impeckable
Foreigner - Double Vision
Judas Priest - Stained Class
KISS - Ace Frehley
KISS - Gene Simmons
KISS - Paul Stanley
KISS - Peter Criss
Krokus - Painkiller
Magnum - Kingdom of Madness
Frank Marino & Mahogany Rush - Live
Molly Hatchet - Molly Hatchet
Gary Moore - Back on the Streets
Ted Nugent - Double Live Gonzo!
Ted Nugent - Weekend Warriors
Queen - Jazz
Rainbow - Long Live Rock 'n' Roll
Ram Jam - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Ram
Rose Tattoo - Rose Tattoo
Rush - Hemispheres
Scorpions - Taken by Force
Scorpions - Tokyo Tapes

^

I agree all of those can be considered metal.

But how is Slipknot not metal? I consider modern sounding, new (and even 'nu') bands metal as well.

I am an inclusionist myself.

And I don't think you can have it both ways. Don't start including bands from one extreme and excluding them from another. Either only "true" metal is metal, or different variations of metal are also metal. You can combine metal with grunge and call it alternative metal. Sure, that's metal to me. You can combine it with rap and call it nu-metal, sure. You can combine it with pop and call it hair metal, sure. Just like Wurthless said, a genre cannot be considered a measure of quality. You can't exclude or include artists based on your personal preference. Just face the fact there are metal bands you like, and also metal bands you don't like. Like maybe the entire subgenre of nu-metal or metalcore for instance. For some, it's 70's metal, for some glam metal.

I love how the initial topic itself shifted from a specific band to the general game of GENRE GENRE GENRE®.

corplhicks wrote:

I love how the initial topic itself shifted from a specific band to the general game of GENRE GENRE GENRE.

It's inevitable. It happens every time. You can almost set your watch by it.

It's just a topic that's able to be endlessly rambled about, haha. I kind of enjoy seeing all the passionate responses though.

journeyman wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

How is Sad Wings of Destiny above In Rock. A good list of Heavy Metal.

Just someone's opinion. The fact that they are both on the list is all that matters to me. Both are classics.

corplhicks wrote:

I love how the initial topic itself shifted from a specific band to the general game of GENRE GENRE GENRE®.

The initial topic was GENRE GENRE GENRE® Nothing has really shifted, this argument has been raging for as long as I've been around and it was 100% inevitable that we would get here.

I did state hard rock earlier in the thread.

That being said, I completely agree with those that say you cannot deny that there are actual metal bands that they influenced, even if you don't consider them metal per se.

I do know people who grew up listening to Van Halen in the late 1970s/early 1980s, though, and even they consider them more hard rock than metal.

This thread does sort of remind me of the man who sits across from me at work. He is much older than me (late 40s/early 50s) and he is a big fan of horror. Not long ago, he states that he believes that one of the horror movie genre's most iconic movies, Halloween, would be considered a "thriller" if it came out today, not horror. The sequels, horror, and the movies it influenced (Friday the 13th, A Nightmare on Elm Street, Scream, etc.), horror as well for sure. But the original Halloween would be considered mild compared to later entries and later movies in a similar mold.

But then again, I have seen people accuse others of being ignorant for not thinking of Bon Jovi as heavy metal. I think we can all agree that no matter what your answer to the original question the thread asked...that is taking things too far.

Bon Jovi was metal in the 80's. Glam metal, hair metal, pop metal.

Not so much anymore. They moved on and dropped the metal from their pop. I guess pop rock best describes them now.

Van Halen also moved away from metal.

Van Halen were considered metal in 1978, by both their audience and critics. Remember when this album was released in 1978, the heaviest band on the planet may have been Black Sabbath, Motorhead had only released their debut album a year earlier, Judas Priest had just released 'Stained Class', and the genre had yet evolved to the next level.

manny wrote:

Van Halen were considered metal in 1978, by both their audience and critics. Remember when this album was released in 1978, the heaviest band on the planet may have been Black Sabbath, Motorhead had only released their debut album a year earlier, Judas Priest had just released 'Stained Class', and the genre had yet evolved to the next level.

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

ultmetal wrote:

manny wrote:

Van Halen were considered metal in 1978, by both their audience and critics. Remember when this album was released in 1978, the heaviest band on the planet may have been Black Sabbath, Motorhead had only released their debut album a year earlier, Judas Priest had just released 'Stained Class', and the genre had yet evolved to the next level.

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

So VH were or are heavy metal?

Therein lies the problem with this debate. Assuming that we are all like minded (we all love the bands/ artists in question and are not trying to discredit them in any way) and are fans of the genre, what makes it hard to define is the bands sound changes as time goes on. We, the fans (and critics) then debate about this liquid, ever changing factor. Lari has a great point, as does Manny. I am of the opinion that a lot of bands started out as Metal, but, when I look at their whole discography, they are no longer Metal. Maybe we need the sub genres or prefixes before the term "Metal" to keep it all straight. Sure, too many descriptors gets annoying and silly, but it helps to keep it all in perspective. For me, anyway.

The genre since the 80's has mutated so much that bands like Aerosmith, KISS, and Alice Cooper do not sound all that metallic compared to the likes of later bands such as Slayer, Slipknot , Death etc. The music has to evolve and change.

The term heavy metal was still a fairly new tag in 1978, and the genre was well defined as it later became. So artists as diverse as Grand Funk Railroad and Queen were classified as metal.

Agreed.

What does metal get you? Is it clout, cred, recognition? Why would a band want the label. Some have resisted their bands being called Heavy Metal like Jimmy Page, Ian Gillan, and Eddie Van Halen. I wondered why at the time. Now I can sorta see why. You often hear "man, that guy can really play the blues" and yet may not even be in a blues band, but rather a rock band. Seldom is the case with metal. Growing up I thought that metal was a harder version of Hard Rock. A way of giving emphasis or praise when bands kicked it up a notch. That all changed when bands like Anthrax, Slayer, Celtic Frost and Metallica hit the scene. When I was younger I never questioned whether a band was metal or not. Just if I was going to buy it.

brokentulsa wrote:

The problem with threads like this is that most fans..especially young fans cant see past the last few years of metal...look at some of the bands that are considered metal today...to me bands like Godsmack and slipknot are not metal.. but bands like Kiss, saxon, aerosmith, AC/DC and even the sweet are heavy metal... here are a few other heavy metal albums that came out the same year as Van Halen 1..are these metal bands..absolutely...

Thin Lizzy - Live and Dangerous
UFO - Obsession
Whitesnake - Snakebite
Whitesnake - Trouble
Y&T - Struck Down
AC/DC - Powerage
AC/DC - If You Want Blood You've Got It
Alice Cooper - From the Inside
Black Sabbath - Never Say Die!
Blue Öyster Cult - Some Enchanted Evening
Budgie - Impeckable
Foreigner - Double Vision
Judas Priest - Stained Class
KISS - Ace Frehley
KISS - Gene Simmons
KISS - Paul Stanley
KISS - Peter Criss
Krokus - Painkiller
Magnum - Kingdom of Madness
Frank Marino & Mahogany Rush - Live
Molly Hatchet - Molly Hatchet
Gary Moore - Back on the Streets
Ted Nugent - Double Live Gonzo!
Ted Nugent - Weekend Warriors
Queen - Jazz
Rainbow - Long Live Rock 'n' Roll
Ram Jam - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Ram
Rose Tattoo - Rose Tattoo
Rush - Hemispheres
Scorpions - Taken by Force
Scorpions - Tokyo Tapes

What is hard rock then?

Lari wrote:

Bon Jovi was metal in the 80's. Glam metal, hair metal, pop metal.

Not so much anymore. They moved on and dropped the metal from their pop. I guess pop rock best describes them now.

Van Halen also moved away from metal.

Would you also say Journey, Survivor, Aldo Nova or Night Ranger are metal?

TheGreatDuck wrote:

brokentulsa wrote:

The problem with threads like this is that most fans..especially young fans cant see past the last few years of metal...look at some of the bands that are considered metal today...to me bands like Godsmack and slipknot are not metal.. but bands like Kiss, saxon, aerosmith, AC/DC and even the sweet are heavy metal... here are a few other heavy metal albums that came out the same year as Van Halen 1..are these metal bands..absolutely...

Thin Lizzy - Live and Dangerous
UFO - Obsession
Whitesnake - Snakebite
Whitesnake - Trouble
Y&T - Struck Down
AC/DC - Powerage
AC/DC - If You Want Blood You've Got It
Alice Cooper - From the Inside
Black Sabbath - Never Say Die!
Blue Öyster Cult - Some Enchanted Evening
Budgie - Impeckable
Foreigner - Double Vision
Judas Priest - Stained Class
KISS - Ace Frehley
KISS - Gene Simmons
KISS - Paul Stanley
KISS - Peter Criss
Krokus - Painkiller
Magnum - Kingdom of Madness
Frank Marino & Mahogany Rush - Live
Molly Hatchet - Molly Hatchet
Gary Moore - Back on the Streets
Ted Nugent - Double Live Gonzo!
Ted Nugent - Weekend Warriors
Queen - Jazz
Rainbow - Long Live Rock 'n' Roll
Ram Jam - Portrait of the Artist as a Young Ram
Rose Tattoo - Rose Tattoo
Rush - Hemispheres
Scorpions - Taken by Force
Scorpions - Tokyo Tapes

What is hard rock then?

"Heavy Metal" is not a coffin with a lock on it that you cannot get out of. Why can't they be both?

However, I don't necessarily consider "Hard Rock" as a genre proper. It just separates the harder form of rock from the softer "pop-rock". I definitely think grunge and prog and heavy metal are just forms of "hard rock".

Regarding Journey, I think they play both soft AND hard rock. They could fit in a whole lot of genres. They wouldn't necessarily be a very good heavy metal band though. Is Nickelback metal?

Wikipedia' wrote:

Heavy metal (or simply metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in the United Kingdom and the United States. With roots in blues rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and overall loudness. Heavy metal lyrics and performance styles are often associated with masculinity, aggression, and machismo.

The first heavy metal bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple attracted large audiences, though they were often derided by critics, a status common throughout the history of the genre. During the mid-1970s, Judas Priest helped spur the genre's evolution by discarding much of its blues influence; Motörhead introduced a punk rock sensibility and an increasing emphasis on speed. Beginning in the late 1970s, bands in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal such as Iron Maiden and Saxon followed in a similar vein. Before the end of the decade, heavy metal fans became known as "metalheads" or "headbangers".

Heavy metal and hard rock were nearly synonymous terms in the 70's. There wasn't this big separation in genres that we have now, nor did people argue that certain band's were or weren't heavy metal. We were fans of heavy metal. We were fans of hard rock. Calling a band "hard rock" wasn't precluding them from being a heavy metal band.

By 1978 a lot of music and entertainment publications were predicting that heavy metal was dead or dying. I have several magazines talking about the dying metal dinosaurs such as Deep Purple, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, UFO, Priest, Kiss, Queen, Budgie, etc. Of course we know that this didn't happen. There was a whole SECOND WAVE of heavy metal that followed. There could not have been a NEW WAVE of HEAVY METAL had their not been a FIRST WAVE. Van Halen was right on the cusp of that first wave and helped fuel the second wave. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this probably wasn't there. Van Halen were poised to be the biggest heavy metal band on the planet in 1978 and indeed that happened.

Of course by 1980 those same publications were changing their tune proclaiming the rebirth of heavy metal. Most of those same magazines went from being focused on different styles of music and entertainment to being almost completely focused on heavy metal.

journeyman wrote:

What does metal get you? Is it clout, cred, recognition? Why would a band want the label. Some have resisted their bands being called Heavy Metal like Jimmy Page, Ian Gillan, and Eddie Van Halen. I wondered why at the time. Now I can sorta see why. You often hear "man, that guy can really play the blues" and yet may not even be in a blues band, but rather a rock band. Seldom is the case with metal. Growing up I thought that metal was a harder version of Hard Rock. A way of giving emphasis or praise when bands kicked it up a notch. That all changed when bands like Anthrax, Slayer, Celtic Frost and Metallica hit the scene. When I was younger I never questioned whether a band was metal or not. Just if I was going to buy it.

And you have to know the history of the term to understand why those bands don't want that label. The thing is, the term was used as a negative thing in publications in the early 70's. As well, band's didn't want to be pegged and forced into a box. Being a hard rock/heavy metal band in the 70's didn't mean you had to have one sound. Bands could do softer songs, heavier songs, add some blues, some funk, some jazz, whatever. It wasn't this strict rigid definition we like to put on it today. Judas Priest were one of the first bands to really latch onto the term in the 70's and rode it to success in the 80's.

Yeah, I'd say Priest were the first band that decided they were happy to stay strictly in the confines of heavy metal.

They made up for that by going in all sorts of different directions within the genre.

By the way, someone mentioned Dad Metal. It may come across as a derogatory term, but I think it's perfect. I think the Big Four of thrash metal could well be described as Dad Metal now. And the original Big Three of the early 70's would then obviously be Grandpa Metal.

ultmetal wrote:

Wikipedia' wrote:

Heavy metal (or simply metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in the United Kingdom and the United States. With roots in blues rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and overall loudness. Heavy metal lyrics and performance styles are often associated with masculinity, aggression, and machismo.

The first heavy metal bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple attracted large audiences, though they were often derided by critics, a status common throughout the history of the genre. During the mid-1970s, Judas Priest helped spur the genre's evolution by discarding much of its blues influence; Motörhead introduced a punk rock sensibility and an increasing emphasis on speed. Beginning in the late 1970s, bands in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal such as Iron Maiden and Saxon followed in a similar vein. Before the end of the decade, heavy metal fans became known as "metalheads" or "headbangers".

Heavy metal and hard rock were nearly synonymous terms in the 70's. There wasn't this big separation in genres that we have now, nor did people argue that certain band's were or weren't heavy metal. We were fans of heavy metal. We were fans of hard rock. Calling a band "hard rock" wasn't precluding them from being a heavy metal band.

By 1978 a lot of music and entertainment publications were predicting that heavy metal was dead or dying. I have several magazines talking about the dying metal dinosaurs such as Deep Purple, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, UFO, Priest, Kiss, Queen, Budgie, etc. Of course we know that this didn't happen. There was a whole SECOND WAVE of heavy metal that followed. There could not have been a NEW WAVE of HEAVY METAL had their not been a FIRST WAVE. Van Halen was right on the cusp of that first wave and help fuel the second wave. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this probably wasn't there. Van Halen were poised to be the biggest heavy metal band on the planet in 1978 and indeed that happened.

Of course by 1980 those same publications were changing their tune proclaiming the rebirth of heavy metal. Most of those same magazines went from being focused on different styles of music and entertainment to being almost completely focused on heavy metal.

This is a fantastic and very factual post, many Kudos!!!!

Van Halen
Ted Nugent
Aerosmith
KISS
AC/DC

are NOT metal, even the members will tell you that. It's hard rock.

I saw VH back in 78 and nobody called them metal because the term wasn't even used till a few years later.

Who the hell even called Van Halen metal?