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Fat Freddy wrote:

Dude, we get it. You hate everything. Zzzzzzz.

This....... But what do we know Keith - we're just "old" metalhead who don't get it..... NOW GET OFF MY LAWN YOU DAMN YOUNG GREEN DAY LOVING PUNKS!!!!

I've grown so tired of the pretentiousness in the metal community. I'm 38 and the first sounds of music that I remember hearing is Sabbath and KISS. Metal is all that I've listened to my entire life. I've listened to and enjoyed probably every genre of metal and enjoyed something from them all. Well maybe not nu-metal, never did get it.

As far as Thrash goes, it just kind of moved on. Instead of trying to repeat the same albums over and over, the bands explored. I still listened to it, but my tastes as a teen went into Death Metal, then to black metal in my early 20's. I still listened to what was going on, but my tastes just expanded. Personally I like a few of the modern Thrash bands, including Municipal Waste. Saw them last year and they were a blast to see live. I personally couldn't give two shits about what some asshole that jerks off to the "That's Not Metal" website thinks about my taste in music.

exanimate wrote:

I've grown so tired of the pretentiousness in the metal community. I'm 38 and the first sounds of music that I remember hearing is Sabbath and KISS. Metal is all that I've listened to my entire life. I've listened to and enjoyed probably every genre of metal and enjoyed something from them all. Well maybe not nu-metal, never did get it.

As far as Thrash goes, it just kind of moved on. Instead of trying to repeat the same albums over and over, the bands explored. I still listened to it, but my tastes as a teen went into Death Metal, then to black metal in my early 20's. I still listened to what was going on, but my tastes just expanded. Personally I like a few of the modern Thrash bands, including Municipal Waste. Saw them last year and they were a blast to see live. I personally couldn't give two shits about what some asshole that jerks off to the "That's Not Metal" website thinks about my taste in music.

The problem is painkiller doesn't like anything and cannot stand that other people do.

exanimate wrote:

I personally couldn't give two shits about what some asshole that jerks off to the "That's Not Metal" website thinks about my taste in music.

 

Painkiller wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Ah, the old Exhorder insult. Anyone suggesting Pantera ripped off Exhorder is not worth talking to.

Anyone suggesting that Green Day ever was punk is not worth talking to.

Facts are facts. Sorry.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Eyesore wrote:

Painkiller wrote:

I believe this happened sometime in 1988 or 1989, when even Slayer started putting out groove-laden shit. The exchange of speed and aggression for lazy, chugging riffs is what turned many die-hard metalheads away.

The way I see it, metal became this stripped-down, plodding nonsense that was the perfect bridge for hillbillies and Brian Johnson-era AC/DC enthusiasts to jump ship. Pantera is one of the biggest culprits of this macho-tuff-gai era, having played a really horrible version of Exhorder's music.

Ah, the old Exhorder insult. Anyone suggesting Pantera ripped off Exhorder is not worth talking to.

There is a strong vocal similarity.  Phil was seen wearing their shirt.  He was friends with the band, and a big fan of other NOLA bands at the time because that is where he was from.  So yeah, it's very, very possible that Kyle Thomas was a big influence for him.  The rest of the band, no way.

It's certainly worth talking about.  I guess some are more concerned with casting some folks out as lepers than discussing music with them because their views disagree with theirs.

It's a stupid argument used as a means to discredit Pantera. It's no different than those who insist that Lars played "one drum at a time" on And Justice for All, or that they spliced bits of tape together to create that studio performance. This, of course, besides being ludicrous in general, ignores all proof to the contrary. You know, like live performances where he played every note. His work on that album is some of the best drumming metal has ever seen, but Lars is "a douche" and Metallica went mainstream, so haters need to find ways to discredit him and the band in general. (Today, he's a hollow shell of what he was then. No argument there.)

Pantera is no different. Polarizing lead singer, hugely popular, which of course means they cannot be enjoyed by all those folks who always says things like "Their first album is the only one worth listening to," so someone creates some nonsense story to discredit them and a legion of dopes latch onto it.

First, there are vocal similarities between Phil and Kyle Thomas, but that only begins to appear on the full-length Slaughter in the Vatican, which came out after Cowboys from Hell. Kyle sounds nothing like Phil on either of Exhorder's two demos. On the demos Kyle just sounded like every other thrasher screamer in existence.

So here's the timeline:

Through 1986 and 1987 Exhorder releases two demos, both of which feature standard thrash vocals by Kyle Thomas, sounding nothing like Phil's later work in Pantera.

Pantera hires Phil and in 1988, a year after Exhorder's second demo was released, releases Power Metal, which sees Phil singing mostly in a traditional metal style, but also in a heavier style at times which would later feature in Cowboys from Hell.

Cowboys from Hell is released in 1990. Phil is predominantly singing in that heavier style with a handful of 80s metal throwback moments.

Months later, Exhorder releases Slaughter in the Vatican. Oddly enough, Kyle Thomas, who never sounded like Phil prior to Phil's involvement with Pantera, sounds at times similar to Phil.

In 1992 Pantera releases Vulgar Display of Power to huge success. Phil is now singing an even heavier style, no more 80s metal wails or anything.

Also in 1992, a month after Vulgar Display of Power came out, Exhorder releases The Law. It is here, on this album, that Kyle REALLY sounds like Phil. A style Phil, to varying degrees, had been using for years.

Logically speaking, it makes no sense whatsoever to suggest Phil copped Kyle's style. It's nonsense. Phil was doing it before Kyle. So if anything makes sense, it's that Kyle ripped off Phil's style! But no, people won't dare suggest that because Exhorder is still underground, it's still cool to be a fan of Exhorder, not that stinky mainstream Pantera. So clearly Phil must have ripped off that style from Kyle. After all, Phil was seen wearing an Exhorder t-shirt!

So yeah, nonsense. Not to mention that musically the bands are not alike at all and it certainly wasn't Phil's vocals that made Pantera successful.

How do we know, since Phil was friends with Kyle and EXHORDER, that he didn't catch them performing "The Law" material on demos or live performances/rehearsals before 1992? I have seen bands that I was friends with do songs years before they were released. Release dates don't tell the whole story.

I don't care about discrediting PANTERA. It's not personal to me. I've never seen Kyle wear a PANTERA shirt but Phil did wear an EXHORDER shirt. There's something to be said about that.

I think PANTERA is 100x better band than EXHORDER but I don't think Phil pioneered that vocal style. So what? But like I have said before, good metal bands are about more than just vocals and that is where PANTERA really dominated over EXHORDER.

So apparently it was worth talking about after all!

Temple of Blood wrote:

I've never seen Kyle wear a PANTERA shirt but Phil did wear an EXHORDER shirt.  There's something to be said about that.

yeah - he paid some cash and enjoyed wearing the shirt.

Temple of Blood wrote:

How do we know, since Phil was friends with Kyle and EXHORDER, that he didn't catch them performing "The Law" material on demos or live performances/rehearsals before 1992?  I have seen bands that I was friends with do songs years before they were released.  Release dates don't tell the whole story.

I don't care about discrediting PANTERA.  It's not personal to me.  I've never seen Kyle wear a PANTERA shirt but Phil did wear an EXHORDER shirt.  There's something to be said about that.

I think PANTERA is 100x better band than EXHORDER but I don't think Phil pioneered that vocal style.  So what?  But like I have said before, good metal bands are about more than just vocals and that is where PANTERA really dominated over EXHORDER.

So apparently it was worth talking about after all!

But everything you just said can easily be flipped. How do we know Kyle didn't see Pantera live? Pantera put their cards on the table first. The timestamp says Pantera was there first. So again, it takes a serious leap of logic to suggest they copied Exhorder.

That's my problem with this argument. It just doesn't make sense to say Pantera ripped off Exhorder unless you ignore the fact that Pantera did it first. I'm not a fan of what-ifs being used to "prove" things. We can certainly discuss it all, but with someone like Painkiller there is no discussing, only telling.

I have no idea what most metalheads want. I'm not sure they know either.

As long as we're picking nits, I've always thought that Pantera "borrowed" a whole bunch from Prong and Helmet - esp. on the VDOP album...

Fat Freddy wrote:

As long as we're picking nits, I've always thought that Pantera "borrowed" a whole bunch from Prong and Helmet - esp. on the VDOP album...

Yeah, don't hear that at all.   

Must be just me (shrugs)

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^^ Yea, mainly in the repetitive/staccato riffing. Not so much the vox.

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Thrash metal's balls being lost? Don't know what to say to that. Will I get beat down if I say that thrash metal never lost anything, just went into a regressive state in the 90's when the most popular bands started following the grunge crowd at the times, changing with the times, and Metallica released The Black Album?

Because I swear "true metalheads" scare me sometimes. They will castrate you for every little thing you say.

But that's not to say that every genre of metal has its pitfalls and bad times. As far as "revivalism" goes, every genre has their time of being brought back into the spotlight. There's a bunch of new thrash bands out there that sound like everybody else and old bands attempting to recapture their speed (which, to be honest, is a great thing to see). Thrash still has the energy and speed, but the rawness of the 80's isn't there anymore and recapturing its unique magic just can't and won't happen in this generation of cookie-cutter thrash metal.

So...no, I don't believe that thrash metal "lost its balls" at any point in time. It just changed with the times, much like everything does, and it will continue to do so.

Slayer didn't lose any aggression after '89. Songs like War Ensemble and Hallowed Point are very fast. Seasons in the Abyss was like a cross between South of Heaven and Reign in Blood. It's my favorite!

I'm not clear on what exploring groove has to do with losing balls.

^^The above three posts.

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Fat Freddy wrote:

^^ Yea, mainly in the repetitive/staccato riffing. Not so much the vox.

I still don't hear it. I've never listened to Prong—and I'm a big fan—and thought, This sounds like Pantera. To be honest with you, I think both bands have a pretty unique sound, one solely their own.

I think that the recording studios equipment has changed, into something for the worse.
Instead of recording a band - they piece it together - ha ha ha -
you know, vocals one day - lead guitar two weeks later -
bass player is 400 miles away, in a different studio - re-laying down the track -
F***, I bought Judas Priest live the other day - to blast " Out in the Cold " -
the first song has Halford singing- then - surprise surprise -
his voice is doing the back-up vocals at the very same exact time ?????
LIVE CONCERT ???????  
It's only gotten worse with time for many bands trying to 'capture' their sound - ha ha

Eyesore wrote:

Cowboys from Hell is released in 1990. Phil is predominantly singing in that heavier style with a handful of 80s metal throwback moments.

Months later, Exhorder releases Slaughter in the Vatican. Oddly enough, Kyle Thomas, who never sounded like Phil prior to Phil's involvement with Pantera, sounds at times similar to Phil.

In 1992 Pantera releases Vulgar Display of Power to huge success. Phil is now singing an even heavier style, no more 80s metal wails or anything.

Also in 1992, a month after Vulgar Display of Power came out, Exhorder releases The Law. It is here, on this album, that Kyle REALLY sounds like Phil. A style Phil, to varying degrees, had been using for years.

Not to discredit Pantera (I quite like them), but I feel like Phil's vox sound quite different from Cowboys to Vulgar. And I feel like the would-be-Vulgar style of vox are quite plain on Slaughter in the Vatican.

Whether Phil was influenced by (most likely), ripped off (I don't imagine so) or it's a coincidence that he sounds like (no chance) Exhorder, it doesn't really matter to me. I think it's plain as day that his vocal delivery on Vulgar is pretty damned similar to Vatican.

I don't care either way. But that's my opinion on the subject, after listening to Cowboys, Vulgar, Vatican and The Law at great length.

Glower wrote:

I think that the recording studios equipment has changed, into something for the worse.
Instead of recording a band - they piece it together - ha ha ha -
you know, vocals one day - lead guitar two weeks later -
bass player is 400 miles away, in a different studio - re-laying down the track -
F***, I bought Judas Priest live the other day - to blast " Out in the Cold " -
the first song has Halford singing- then - surprise surprise -
his voice is doing the back-up vocals at the very same exact time ?????
LIVE CONCERT ???????  
It's only gotten worse with time for many bands trying to 'capture' their sound - ha ha

I'm not quite sure of your point, but it's pretty established fact that Priest do a lot of studio stuff for their 'live' albums. All the way through my youth just about everyone I knew called 'Unleashed in the East' 'Unleashed in the Studio'

I think that you would have to go pre George Martin/Phil Spector to find a majority of albums recorded in the way you describe. I don't care so long as i like what I hear.