Which thrash guitarist is most true to his roots?

AchrisK wrote:

My opinion is that good metalcore songs are few and far between. They often have a cool sound right at first, but no structure or variation or progression that gives them staying power.

Bingo.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Quote :

isn't mixing other genres into Thrash a way to keep it going?

Yes, but not the only way.

I never critcized metalcore because it had some "core" influence. I love stuff like PRONG, DRI, PRO-PAIN, SUICIDAL.

My point is "where are the good songs from metalcore bands?" I don't mean just decent songs, but songs that are truly good.

I think GOD FORBID "Antihero" is a good song and to date is the only metalcore song I have heard that has good riffs throughout.

I just think it's funny how these debates go. I state my position. Then you act like my position is something different than what I said, then I end up wasting time correcting something that you assumed ....

You pretend that opinions can't be informed and yet you write reviews and bother to ask me about mine. If all are equal and completely subjective it wouldn't make any sense to care about mine for for anyone to care about yours.

Ult summed this up perfectly:

Quote :

Opinions can be informed, but in the end, they are still just opinions. I myself am not much of a fan of metalcore, but I am sure you'd find plenty of "informed" fans of metalcore who could point out a large list of songs that "in their opinion" are "good songs".

You have every right in the world to think what you think. I'm just trying to spread a little enlightenment. j/k

Opinions can be informed, absolutely. But, as Ult said, they're still just opinions and, informed or not, one is no more important than the other. Opinions are subjective. All opinions are equally valid. What seems to give some opinions more weight than others is the amount of people who share them.

What defines "truly good" or "just decent" to you may define "sucks" to someone else. Also, having an "informed" opinion just means that you happen to know a lot about what you like and don't like...it doesn't make it mean any more or less to anyone else but yourself (or myself, as the case may be).

I wasn't trying to get under your skin (I know you're not used to that )...I was genuinely trying to have a discussion of your viewpoints. I'll know better next time.

ultmetal wrote:

One of my favorite metalcore songs is "Reborn Empowered" by Living Sacrifice. I'd certainly call this a "good song, not just a decent song."

I'll have to check that one out.

Just listened to that YouTube clip. The very end of the song is cut off for some reason, but you can at least get the idea.

S wrote:

I wasn't trying to get under your skin

You didn't.

Temple of Blood wrote:

S wrote:

I wasn't trying to get under your skin

You didn't.

Good, then.

I guess, suffice it to say, that change is good...but we're not always going to like the change.

Quote :

"where are the good songs from metalcore bands?"

There aren't any! No bother to even look! That genre title alone just irks me. Just like nu metal to me, its not metal! Tough guy, dummied down, jock boy breakdowns the entire song with Phil Anselmo clones on vocals.

Btw, my vote went to Gary Holt!

Lurideath wrote:

Quote :

"where are the good songs from metalcore bands?"

There aren't any! No bother to even look! That genre title alone just irks me. Just like nu metal to me, its not metal! Tough guy, dummied down, jock boy breakdowns the entire song with Phil Anselmo clones on vocals.

Not for nothin', but some Metalcore bands have some great guitar work...lots of harmonies & melodic choruses...the drummers are usually pretty impressive too, IMO.

hmm, metalcorebore. I keep saying it..what is the use of core influence being infused into the Gothenthrash or whatever it is...How do crappy breakdowns and screamo vocals improve this music? What made it not good enough in the first place to where this genre had to happen? It's a 'because we can' genre that showcases everything Americans don't understand or don't want to pay attention to about death and thrash metal.

I like some Zao stuff. It helps that Dan sounds more like Jeff Walker than Phil Anselmo or Corey Taylor.

The only metalcore that I like is Skyliner.



No really, Skyliner is good.

S wrote:

Not for nothin', but some Metalcore bands have some great guitar work...lots of harmonies & melodic choruses...the drummers are usually pretty impressive too, IMO.

Yeah, some of the players (like in KSE) have oodles of technique. I wouldn't necessarily say that makes their "guitar work" great because I have yet to hear the good riffage. Even lower-tech players can write good riffage.

Orion Crystal Ice wrote:

It's a 'because we can' genre that showcases everything Americans don't understand or don't want to pay attention to about death and thrash metal.

That can be said for a lot of crappy Euro-metal these days too.

kerry king. they all became diffrent over time but his riffs are stil pretty thrashy

SpectreFate wrote:

The only metalcore that I like is Skyliner.

No no, we can't do that yet, the CM contract isn't finalized..

Temple of Blood wrote:

Yeah, some of the players (like in KSE) have oodles of technique. I wouldn't necessarily say that makes their "guitar work" great because I have yet to hear the good riffage. Even lower-tech players can write good riffage.

form over substance...which in turn eventually causes even dim people to turn against it, but at the same time throw all heavy metal under the bus....same thing that happened after the 80's..it's coming..watch..

Temple of Blood wrote:

That can be said for a lot of crappy Euro-metal these days too.

I think there are more good ones than there are good metalcore bands though. I at least appreciate the general feeling and purpose of a lot of that music; most metalcore is pretty hard to relate to...very little musical color, too much overproduced angst......well, everything in 'heavy' music that gets big here tends to follow that pattern. Best country in the world but full of whiners.

and here is an example I would give of bad VS good European style power....try to play each in entirety:




computer music with vocals that don't even sound that good ruling every aspect, white noise production, VS



riffs, dynamics, tempo changes, no need to shred 100% of the time, more natural guitar and drum tones, classic metal influences very easily traced...Chris Bay can be an acquired taste on vocals, but you get the point...........I always thought if they had a favorite like Daniel Heiman singing everybody would love this band, but I don't mind Chris so much, so..

Also I vote for Dave...the songwriting isn't 'true to the roots', but his style pretty much sounds exactly the same to me. Not much of a guy for experimenting, but it does help him keep his identity.

Although if we talk 'thrash!' the guitarist that always pulls something out that really gives me that old-school feeling is Jeff Waters. Even though he churns out tons of crap. I still hear this 'they don't play that way since 1980-..' thing in his style.

in the minority I chose Mr Dave Mustaine

Mustaine, I think for the most part except for Risk, Dave plays similar to what he started doing

Well, I listened and I didn't care at all for that LIVING SACRIFICE or FREEDOM CALL song. You guys thought those guitar riffs were good?

Temple of Blood wrote:

Well, I listened and I didn't care at all for that LIVING SACRIFICE or FREEDOM CALL song. You guys thought those guitar riffs were good?

You didn't? Obviously you don't know what a good guitar riff is if you cannot recognize how great that Living Sacrifice song is.

I think riffing is a difficult thing. The one thing I dislike, no matter what subgenre of metal, is when the guitar just sits on this one shapeless chord when it's not necessary, and it just makes 'guitar sound' instead of doing anything of interest rhythmically, etc. I had posted the FC song as an example of something in their style that I really dig, in relation to how they approach their stuff, vs the oft-crappiness of SA. I like the main opening riff a good deal and think it's a good riff. And I enjoy the guitar the rest of the song for the reasons I mentioned when I posted the video. I think riffing in a way that, I suppose, is the same as say old Sabbath or et al, is extremely difficult simply because of the vast amount of heavy metal out there, and if excessive repetition is something we wish to avoid, then sooner or later the riff well is just going to either run dry, get stale, or et al. I know this especially having started out on rhythm guitar when I started playing 11 years ago. So, when it comes to guitar, I want to hear what it's doing as a whole throughout the song and it be interesting, something I want to hear, something that contributes to the song. Even though it's technically my favorite thing, I'm not too concerned if a song isn't carried by a riff or riffs so much as it's carried by great guitar. For example I don't mind if there's a keyboard or bass part taking the lead at the beginning of a song if the killer riff is saved for the bridge part leading into a good solo, and so forth. It really depends what songwriters want their songs to be *about*..some bands it's about vocals..some it's about guitar or another instrument..and the instrumentation is imbalanced. I just want to hear stuff doing well, not being lazy, and being interesting, and considering the state of the riff idiom in 2010, because there's only so many notes one can really string together in the killer it only happens once kind of way, I can forgive if bands have a little less now or maybe one might bring something older to mind and etc. Just keep it good, keep it interesting, work out that guitar overall. I still think bands should try. I just won't discount the song because a guitar part in it isn't as good as A or B guitar part for example. One of my very favorite 'guitar albums', which is overflowing with riffs (the main reason being the unique approach taken), is 'Control and Resistance' by WatchTower. However I listen to that music for different reasons than I listen to Freedom Call, they get me pumped in different ways, relate to different feelings, and thus don't need to be the same, but they do share that I enjoy the songwriting and the guitar role in it. It's nice and far away from groove, core, and other such things, while retaining a full basket of guitarwork, so I love it all.

Reborn Empowered is one of those songs that grabs you - great riffage.

Kerry King, he's the definition of consistencey.

Quote :

It's just that people try to justify metalcore as thrash but where are the good songs?

None of the guitarists i posted play metalcore.