Do you think its bad for a band to turn down shows?

I'm asking this because a few days ago I got a email from a guy who we have done some shows for in the past. He gave us one date and we werent available and then he had another date so our singer decided to look up the bar to see how it was and she said it was a dive bar. I looked up the site and there was some reviews on it as well and from what I got from those reviews it just didnt seem promising. Nothing that would further our careers, nothing that would be memorable at all so basically it would just be another show.

I wrote him back and told him that I checked up on the place and the reviews I read for it doesn't sound promising so were going to have to pass. I get a email back and he says "Ok I'll remember what you said". Now to me I take that as the nicer version of "Ok I'll remember what you said. Now you guys think your some big headlining band now and your too big to play shows in bars. Lets see if I ever ask you to do a show again". Of course were not some huge band nor do we think were better than everyone else but I feel we have to get away from the bar scene. We're not a bar band. Now I could be looking too much into it but is it really worth playing at some bar that reviewers described as a dive bar? Some even said that there was bums sleeping in the seats. Why would a band that has been around for 10 years busting their butts trying to get their music out there want to play at a place like this? Aaaaand basically for FREE!

We play for more than just money. We love playing unless we wouldnt do it and we play hard rock/metal and who really wants to hear this crap nowadays? Only a select few. If we wanted to play some popular music we could do that without even thinking, but we love the music that we play and we have fun doing it. For 10 years though we have busted our butts, played every single show everyone has ever asked us to do and I could tell you over the last 10 years I dont think we have even made $1,000! Thats not counting merchandise sales. Thats pretty sad! but do we care? No because we love playing! But where do you draw the line?

No band can continue with their music just playing at some crappy bar and making no money what so ever. What bothered me the most in this guys email was when I asked him is there any pay he says "Theres a $5 cover charge at the door, after the bar and the door guy gets paid the rest of the money goes to the bands." So what if 1 person shows up? How do you split $5 between the bar, door guy and God knows how many bands? You cant! It makes no sense to waste your time, money and energy to do things like this. Im sure Ultimatum has played shows like these and all the other bands on this board as well. Which is fine thats how you start out and hopefully you can build from that but I can't just play these kind of shows and expect to ever get anywhere with your music. You can promote the shows til your blue in the face but it will never matter.

I feel we have proven ourselves as a band for as long as we have been together. We have recorded demos that have received great reviews, we recorded a full length album that got even better reviews and tons of press, we have even played with a few decent named bands in some decent clubs and even threw together our own shows that went over pretty well. To play at some bar though, just doesnt seem like the next logical sense to me. We need festivals, bigger club shows etc...

That email where the guy said "Ok I'll remember what you said" has been bothering me all day. So am I wrong in turning this show down or am I right?

It is usually best just to say "no thank you" and leave it at that.

If you felt it was a waste of time you did the right thing.

There is no money at all in playing indie music these days.

You can say "sure we'd love to play, but since we are somewhat established, we have some terms". Then mention things like
- guaranteed our expenses are covered
- the concert has to be properly promoted
- facitilies (whatever you think is suitable)
Can you guarantee these things?"

Little things like that make the worse bars immediately back down. Saying "we just checked out your place and it's not good enough for us" may make you seem like dicks, and might be hurtful towards the owner, who is just another guy trying to make a living.

Lari wrote:

You can say "sure we'd love to play, but since we are somewhat established, we have some terms". Then mention things like
- guaranteed our expenses are covered
- the concert has to be properly promoted
- facitilies (whatever you think is suitable)
Can you guarantee these things?"

Little things like that make the worse bars immediately back down. Saying "we just checked out your place and it's not good enough for us" may make you seem like dicks, and might be hurtful towards the owner, who is just another guy trying to make a living.

Lari makes some great points.

And you did the right thing.

Temple of Blood wrote:

There is no money at all in playing indie music these days.

There is money to be made if you do it the right way.

Lari wrote:

You can say "sure we'd love to play, but since we are somewhat established, we have some terms". Then mention things like
- guaranteed our expenses are covered
- the concert has to be properly promoted
- facitilies (whatever you think is suitable)
Can you guarantee these things?"

Little things like that make the worse bars immediately back down. Saying "we just checked out your place and it's not good enough for us" may make you seem like dicks, and might be hurtful towards the owner, who is just another guy trying to make a living.

very good points.

I wouldnt have wrote what I wrote to a owner or anything. I knew the guy who sent me the email he just books random shows that sometimes make no sense. The last show we did for him was on Halloween and he acted like a total moron. He was drunk and when we went on stage between bands he would just ramble about nonsense and it was embarassing. So me writing to him being honest doesnt really matter cause he doesnt really take what he does seriously when he acts like he does.

Lari wrote:

You can say "sure we'd love to play, but since we are somewhat established, we have some terms". Then mention things like
- guaranteed our expenses are covered
- the concert has to be properly promoted
- facitilies (whatever you think is suitable)
Can you guarantee these things?"

Little things like that make the worse bars immediately back down. Saying "we just checked out your place and it's not good enough for us" may make you seem like dicks, and might be hurtful towards the owner, who is just another guy trying to make a living.

I think this is the best approach, good advice Lari.

If you feel your answer wasnt adequate wayne, you could always send another email clarifying your response.

Oh I did write him back after that explaining. He wrote me back just now actually and he totally understands so I'm a little more at ease now haha.

I usually dont like to handle the band stuff as far as booking shows goes cause I like to just say what I want to say haha

I think you did the right thing, if it's not good for the band, its not worth it.

Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

There is no money at all in playing indie music these days.

There is money to be made if you do it the right way.

That's being very naive IMHO.

The old days of the music industry are totally dead ... along with artists dreams of "making it". Music is closer to a charity now than a business.

No shame in turning down a gig...you have to do your band on your terms and if certain venues don't fit into your plan then there's no need.

And yes, there is money to be made if you do things the right way. It takes time, and sacrifice, and TONS of hard work...but it is possible and there are bands doing it. You won't make millions, but if your goal is to simply support yourself then that is certainly attainable...but like I said, it'll take more work and sacrifice than most people are willing to give.

I can understand that you didn't want to hurt the guy's feelings or damage your relationship with him for future possible shows, but if you took the gig and then ended up playing that dive bar for 10 people, it would've done nothing for your band and would've been a waste of your time.

If you are an established local or regional act, turing down a show is fine. As for the no money to be made in music this is half true. Most Indie bands make money only thru merch sells. For the better shows generally the rule is still pay to play. ( Meaning as a band you have to play the venue to let you play ) Rules are a little different for an established act. If you are not a known commodity turning any show or time slot is a bad idea ( Because the promoters or people who run the music production businesses will view you as high maintence and your band will be passed over. It is also best to get to know the best bands and musicians in your area, so if they know of an availalbe time slot or show more otfen than not you will get it.

Worrying about how many people show up is not very professional "I saw Creed in the summer of 1997 and less than a 100 showed up. Mark and Scott were cool and nice guys to hang out with, this gig was outdoor on a flat bed trailer. The next time I saw them was after Human Clay had came out and I noticed that they were coming back my way, so I emailed Phillips and he was like yeah man come and hang out with us again. The show was sold out and over 8000 were in attendence. ( I know this does not happen very often, but if I had not gone to that first show I might not know them now on a personal level. )

Another example is when Marcos and Pete were in Accident Experiement, Pete had contacted me to tell me that they were coming thru town so I gathered up a few friends and we went to the show. It was a complete bust as only me and a few friends were there for the show but it did not faze Pete or Marcos they played their set as if they playing to 3 or 4 thousand instead of an empty bar of 3 or 4 people.

As a band let your music speak for itself, outside of self promotion ( Handing out flyers at the local mall, music stores, or Guitar Center etc) you have very little control over who shows up for your shows and who does not.

Temple of Blood wrote:

Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote:

Temple of Blood wrote:

There is no money at all in playing indie music these days.

There is money to be made if you do it the right way.

That's being very naive IMHO.

The old days of the music industry are totally dead ... along with artists dreams of "making it". Music is closer to a charity now than a business.

thats not being naive. Its the truth. We have put shows on ourselves and actually made some decent money, but the places where we have thrown these shows aren't your typical place where you would have this type of music.

The music industry is only dead as far as cd sales go. That has nothing to do with concerts. I dont know how many times I have been too shows and seeing a sold out club to bands that I didnt think would get 100 people in the door. People still go out to shows. They want to see the bands play and they want to hear live music. They just arent buying it, but this is a whole other topic that has been discussed to death.

We've had some really great turn outs at some bars but when it was time to get paid and all you see is $65 to split between 5 people what sense does that make? The bar makes their money on drinks which is obviously money they keep but they shouldnt be getting money from the door. They are the ones who want bands to play in their bars in the first place. Thats my whole problem with playing in bars. Theres a small majority of them that will give you some decent money but the rest could care less what the bands get. I'd rather play a club or festival with some well named acts and play for free than play for free in a bar.

I went off a reply to your quote a little but I didnt want to make a whole new post.

I think it's terrible. You were about to get signed with a huge bonus and become household names with an entourage everywhere you go. Sorry man, you blew it.

crap!

Phoenix Reign Drummer wrote:

crap!

You just missed out on your chance for Phoenix Reign M&M's, Mr. Potato Heads, trading cards, comic books, video games, etc., etc.... I hope you're happy.

Everyone is kind of razzing you, but I want to be serious with you for a minute.

A couple of things Wayne. First of all making less than a 1000 in door draw is lame for a band that has been around ten years or longer especially if you expect to make it this business.

Next your myspace site does not list any booking agent or band manager that I can tell, you need one!

Next you have to somehow become friends with or befriend huge acts, again your myspace list several of your favorite bands or band that influence you yet you have none of these huge acts connected to your first page of your myspace friends and probably more importantly you need a to be on the first page of some huge acts like say Queensryche, Dream Theater or the likes myspace friends first page ( this is generally the only page most people will look at) In general you need to be somewhere where metal fans see your name and can hear your music.

Festivals are great but do not happen enought to sustain a band. I notice that you are in New York so I do not understand the scene there at all but it seems like it might not be the best place to get noticed due to vast size of the city and how many things are their are to do.

College towns are generally the best places due the number of people looking something to do. For College or university aged students looking for girls and guys while having a beer and listening to a live band is usually a no brainer in kind of these places.

This is why so many good bands come from places like Seattle Wa, Richmond Va, Franklin Tenn, Asheville NC, Austin TX, Columbia SC, Athens Ga, Tulsa Ok, Little Rock Ar.

Not to say big cities do not still have great music scenes because San Diego, Chicago, Altlanta, Boston, still have an incredible stuff going on and probably always will. It is just somehow someway you have to find a way to standout and it might be easier in a smaller market.

Let me ask you a question - How many showcases have you played in that ten year period where Music / Records Company Reps and A/R were present? If not at least ten or a mininum of once of year you are not doing it right. You have to get and keep your name out there. You want it when someone needs an opening act or band your name always comes up, this will help get you to the next step.

I see you guys did a show with Turisas back in the Dec of 2008 why are you not linked to their myspace? They have played the PaganFest and toured with Dragon Force and Sword these are missed opportunities for people to find out who you are.

Good Luck Man. By the way your band is really pretty good!

The reason myspace isnt really kept up is because that site is seriously dying. We get pages and pages of add's daily and I just accepted all of them a few days ago. The majority of them though dont even care who we are. They are just other bands wanting more adds on their myspace page. There were a few legitament people on there saying "The music is great, where can I get a cd", but other than that its mainly bands wanting adds nothing else nothing more.

We have never done a show case for any record company. I dont know why, im not the one who is really in charge of this stuff. Occasionally I'll get a email asking to play a show or something but this stuff usually goes to the guitarist who is mainly the band leader. A lot of people have said we should be putting on a show case and Im going to have to mention this to the band. We recently had a meeting on things that we should and should not be doing and no one brought this up and I didnt even think of it at the time but you did remind me of it so when everyone gets back from vacation i'll have to bring this up. The only thing is to find a nice place we can do this in. Places are closing up left and right.

We did descuss about playing at places near colleges and even at some college shows. So once school starts back up again we will be looking into it. They actually pay too which is a plus.

We do need a manager and a booking agent. We have made countless attempts and we either get your music isnt something that we can work with at this time or we just dont get a response back. We are in talks now with Lordi's management so we'll see if anything comes of that. We even had a friend of a friend which our guitarist ended up knowing, but she wouldnt take us either again because of the music not being their style. Thats a huge problem. Everyone is so hell bent on not sounding like everyone else that they are affraid to take chances.

Our name is out there. We have been in countless magazines around the world from Rock Hard to Metal Hammer even on some popular webzines. Our cds are sold all over the world as well even on The End Records and Century Media. So the name is out there its just getting to play more popular shows is where the problem is leading.

Our biggest thing right now is we want to play BB Kings in NYC. We have a band that we are friends with and we have invited them to do shows and even our singer is going out with their guitar player. They play BB Kings every few months and every time we ask this guy how does he do it, he just says he keeps calling and calling. Now we call call and call, go there leave press kits, make follow up calls and everything but still we get nothing. So either this guy is just really good at getting shows or hes doing some favors on the side.

We have tried countless times to become friends with bands but we go out of our way to invite bands on shows and try to get some kind of movement going but not one single band will give us in return what we have done for them. They are all just douchebags that care nothing but for themselves and it makes me sick.

You have some good thoughts though maybe you should become our manager hahaha

HAHAHA. Your last comment is funny. I am a Southern Native American Boy who knows absolutely nothing about New York, so I am not too sure I would be of any help.

I was however in a few bands, then I promoted several bands, the natural progression was to manage a few bands. Currently, I am a writer for a few Underground Magazines / Webzines so I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the Extreme Music Industry having been apart of it for 20 plus years.

Atlanta has a great music scene??? You mean local music or national touring acts?

325ad wrote:

HAHAHA. Your last comment is funny. I am a Southern Native American Boy who knows absolutely nothing about New York, so I am not too sure I would be of any help.

I was however in a few bands, then I promoted several bands, the natural progression was to manage a few bands. Currently, I am a writer for a few Underground Magazines / Webzines so I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the Extreme Music Industry having been apart of it for 20 plus years.

Haha so what? Maybe this could be a great challenge to you and you can help us with what we are doing wrong. Maybe put us in the right direction as a start and we can take it from there once we get the hang of it. You could always do it from home too just use Mapquest

Thanks. The topic sort of took a left turn so I have taken it to a PM. Later.