Is Metalcore a form of heavy metal?

Been having this interesting discussion on Facebook with a bunch of metalcore fans who make claims like, "old metal sucks" and "thrash sucks", yet they claim to be heavy metal fans. I've also had discussions with metalcore musicians who don't want to be labeled as metalcore and just want to call themselves "metal". One discussion I had with a musician after he posted a link to check out his band. I asked him what style of music they played and he stated, "metal". I replied, "oh, so heavily inspired by Iron Maiden and Judas Priest?" His reply back was, "no, much more brutal." I checked out the link and it was plain old metalcore.

I made the claim in this recent discussion that Metalcore has little to do with heavy metal. What do you think?

Metalcore lacks most vital ingredients of heavy metal. Metalcore is closer to hardcore and hardcore punk than it is to heavy metal. Metalcore lacks the riffs of metal, it lacks guitar-work, guitar solos, staccato picking, scales, power chords, etc. It emphasizes breakdowns over guitar solos, bridges, and other vital song writing ingredients. The vocals are universally the same, monotonous and generally remind me of a prison guard yelling at a juvenile delinquent. Rather than writing heavy riffs, or focusing on songwriting, the guitars are tuned down to give the appearance of heaviness (Drop D, C#, C tunings and even as low as Drop G and F#.) The distortion in the guitars is what gives metalcore the "appearance" of being heavy metal. The fact is however, metalcore has very little to do with heavy metal. If a band like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden can be used as the definition of what heavy metal was and is, then metalcore bands have little to nothing in common.

There are some metalcore bands I'd call metal, others stretch the definition a bit.

I don't know enough about the genre to make the call one way or another. All I know is it seems to be made by people a lot younger and angrier than I am and it's got them WOOOOAAARRRRGH vox I don't like. Get off my lawn ya dang angry kids. (shakes cane)

I hate pure metalcore/hardcore music.

there are many bands whose music is metal, but the vocalist sounds very metalcore.

Last year I got the latest bullet for my valentine album. Music is great but the singer ruined it for me.

I'd call it metal. It's just a different form of metal.

I would not call it metal, and I wouldn't call it hardcore at all--current metal core has really nothing to do with punk or hardcore.

Many moons ago, bands like Converge and Cave In, who were comprised of people who grew up listening to hardcore/punk bands, and also metal bands, came out, and were legitimately blending the two things.

Now, however, metalcore--generally speaking--is played by kids who grew up only listening to metalcore. As a result, the real elements of both punk/hardcore and metal have disappeared. While bands like Converge and Cave In and Prayer for Cleansing and Undying and so on are not really stuff I listen to on the regular, I had albums by all of them at one point, when they were just considered a more metallic offshoot of hardcore. And those older bands are really the only thing that one would call metalcore that I can listen to. And I would assume the members of Converge would not even like being referred to as metalcore. Ha. I'm just using them as an example because they were very early in that style. Let's say proto-metalcore. Ha.

I "sang" for a hardcore band around 2001, and we played countless shows with bands that were considered metalcore at the time, and it wasn't even an issue because they were part of hardcore. And members of those metalcore bands also played in hardcore bands. Our guitar player joined Scarlet after we broke up, so. It was a lot more mixed at that time.

Metalcore is a touchy subject. A lot of younger people love the genre because it has breakdowns and it seems "brutal." Chugging on open strings doesn't make you brutal. Metalcore though in most cases is metal IMO. There are tons of genres within metal. Metalcore is just another of the many!

Some METALCORE is closer to heavy metal then NU METAL or ALTERNATIVE METAL ever was imo. Bands like GOD FORBID, SHADOWS FALL, KILLSWITCH ENGAGE etc..have a lot of heavy metal solos, and thrash metal solos in their music (check out the song THE UNKNOWN by SHADOWS FALL for exemple). In my opinión some METALCORE is part of metal, when its influenced by traditional metal. TRIVIUM is an other exemple. When a band is more influenced by HC then its just less metal. I have nothing against metalcore but a lot of times i dont like the way they look.

a lot of Maiden influences in the guitar for exemple during this song and TRIVIUM have even more traditional sounding songs, also with normal vocals.

MetalRob331 wrote:

Metalcore is a touchy subject. A lot of younger people love the genre because it has breakdowns and it seems "brutal."  Chugging on open strings doesn't make you brutal.  Metalcore though in most cases is metal IMO.  There are tons of genres within metal.  Metalcore is just another of the many!  

But what about it makes it a sub-genre of metal?

Fat Freddy wrote:

I don't know enough about the genre to make the call one way or another. All I know is it seems to be made by people a lot younger and angrier than I am and it's got them WOOOOAAARRRRGH vox I don't like. Get off my lawn ya dang angry kids. (shakes cane)

I'm right there with ya, pops. I don't knows it, don't likes it and I told you kids for the last time. Now the ball is mine.   

The bands make up the genres. Anytime the subject involves a genre, it's always going to be subjective.  I on a personal level feel, if you don't think it's metal, that's perfectly fine. I'm not a huge fan of the genre but when I listen to God Forbid, Demon Hunter, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Caliban, Trivium, Chimaira, and a few others.  I say to myself, that's def metal.  HEAVY Metal!

It's not hardcore and it's not punk. I actually don't hear any punk influences in most of these bands. Therefore, it has to fall into metal IMO!

.

Ah, the ol' what is metal and what isn't metal debate! It's good to be back .

I really don't listen to much metalcore so I really don't care one way or another. Sometimes I'm not sure what is metal anymore. People tell me Nightwish isn't metal but I've never thought of them as anything else. I think we metal fans are like fathers who refuse to believe they have illegitimate children. Yeah, that kid kind of looks like me, but he ain't my kid. Yeah, that has some metal influence, but it's not metal. I feel like we can agree to disagree on something like this. There is just too much grey area. I think if you don't personally don't believe it's metal you can still let someone else believe it.  It's like the tomato being a fruit. There is no harm in letting someone believe a tomato is a vegetable. Now if they believe a tomato is a grain, then you have a problem. In other words if someone thinks metalcore is metal, it's not like they're saying Justin Bieber is metal. Then you have a problem.

MetalRob331 wrote:

The bands make up the genres. Anytime the subject involves a genre, it's always going to be subjective.  I on a personal level feel, if you don't think it's metal, that's perfectly fine. I'm not a huge fan of the genre but when I listen to God Forbid, Demon Hunter, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Caliban, Trivium, Chimaira, and a few others.  I say to myself, that's def metal.  HEAVY Metal!

It's not hardcore and it's not punk.  I actually don't hear any punk influences in most of these bands.  Therefore, it has to fall into metal IMO!

That's funny. The metal fans don't want to claim it and the punk and hardcore crowd won't make claim to it either. Haha! On my Facebook discussion about the subject one guy said he was a fan of hardcore and was offended that metalcore bands use the "core" tag as part of their music because they are not hardcore or punk.

Quote :

Scott Waters as a fan of Hardcore, I also reject the notion that metalcore deserves to have core in its name any more than it deserves to have metal. It has no relation to either one. It's just a cash grab for mallrat emos and scene losers. Hardcore is so totally against all that. Nuclear Assault is what you get when you mix metal and hardcore. Metalcore is what you get when you stick dog turd in a candy wrapper.

ultmetal wrote:

Metalcore lacks most vital ingredients of heavy metal. Metalcore is closer to hardcore and hardcore punk than it is to heavy metal. Metalcore lacks the riffs of metal, it lacks guitar-work, guitar solos, staccato picking, scales, power chords, etc. It emphasizes breakdowns over guitar solos, bridges, and other vital song writing ingredients. The vocals are universally the same, monotonous and generally remind me of a prison guard yelling at a juvenile delinquent. Rather than writing heavy riffs, or focusing on songwriting, the guitars are tuned down to give the appearance of heaviness (Drop D, C#, C tunings and even as low as Drop G and F#.) The distortion in the guitars is what gives metalcore the "appearance" of being heavy metal. The fact is however, metalcore has very little to do with heavy metal. If a band like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden can be used as the definition of what heavy metal was and is, then metalcore bands have little to nothing in common.

I disagree that the vocals are 'universally the same", i'd say that's much more true for Death Metal then it is for Metalcore, I can't tell one DM vocalist apart from another 95% of the time as many sound virtually identical. With Metalcore the vocals are usually distinctly different enough that I can tell the difference.

I think it has more in common with Nu Metal(which I also like) then Heavy Metal.

I don't think the guitars are downtuned to give the "appearance" of heaviness, that's just a different playing style, and IMO there is plenty of focus on songwriting.

Vexer6 wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Metalcore lacks most vital ingredients of heavy metal. Metalcore is closer to hardcore and hardcore punk than it is to heavy metal. Metalcore lacks the riffs of metal, it lacks guitar-work, guitar solos, staccato picking, scales, power chords, etc. It emphasizes breakdowns over guitar solos, bridges, and other vital song writing ingredients. The vocals are universally the same, monotonous and generally remind me of a prison guard yelling at a juvenile delinquent. Rather than writing heavy riffs, or focusing on songwriting, the guitars are tuned down to give the appearance of heaviness (Drop D, C#, C tunings and even as low as Drop G and F#.) The distortion in the guitars is what gives metalcore the "appearance" of being heavy metal. The fact is however, metalcore has very little to do with heavy metal. If a band like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden can be used as the definition of what heavy metal was and is, then metalcore bands have little to nothing in common.

I disagree that the vocals are 'universally the same", i'd say that's much more true for Death Metal then it is for Metalcore, I can't tell one DM vocalist apart from another 95% of the time as many sound virtually identical. With Metalcore the vocals are usually distinctly different enough that I can tell the difference.

I think it has more in common with Nu Metal(which I also like) then Heavy Metal.

I don't think the guitars are downtuned to give the "appearance" of heaviness, that's just a different playing style, and IMO there is plenty of focus on songwriting.

But the guitars are downtuned to make the songs sound heavy. They don't write heavy riffs, so the downtuning gives the appearance of being heavy. That's not an opinion, nor is it wrong to do, it just is what it is. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't like it or that it's bad, just stating a fact.

And what I mean by songwriting is that the songs lack some of the essentials of a great metal song, such as the guitar solo, the bridge, the build up, etc. Instead of these things most of the time they build in "breakdowns". Hope that clears up what I meant.

Perhaps the differences in the vocalists are more apparent to someone who listens to it regularly, but it's pretty clear that the style limits what can be done. It's that macho posturing and screaming like a principle on a delinquent student. (I don't feel tardy!) And you are correct that death metal vocals are also limited and monotonous.

ultmetal wrote:

Vexer6 wrote:

ultmetal wrote:

Metalcore lacks most vital ingredients of heavy metal. Metalcore is closer to hardcore and hardcore punk than it is to heavy metal. Metalcore lacks the riffs of metal, it lacks guitar-work, guitar solos, staccato picking, scales, power chords, etc. It emphasizes breakdowns over guitar solos, bridges, and other vital song writing ingredients. The vocals are universally the same, monotonous and generally remind me of a prison guard yelling at a juvenile delinquent. Rather than writing heavy riffs, or focusing on songwriting, the guitars are tuned down to give the appearance of heaviness (Drop D, C#, C tunings and even as low as Drop G and F#.) The distortion in the guitars is what gives metalcore the "appearance" of being heavy metal. The fact is however, metalcore has very little to do with heavy metal. If a band like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden can be used as the definition of what heavy metal was and is, then metalcore bands have little to nothing in common.

I disagree that the vocals are 'universally the same", i'd say that's much more true for Death Metal then it is for Metalcore, I can't tell one DM vocalist apart from another 95% of the time as many sound virtually identical. With Metalcore the vocals are usually distinctly different enough that I can tell the difference.

I think it has more in common with Nu Metal(which I also like) then Heavy Metal.

I don't think the guitars are downtuned to give the "appearance" of heaviness, that's just a different playing style, and IMO there is plenty of focus on songwriting.

But the guitars are downtuned to make the songs sound heavy. They don't write heavy riffs, so the downtuning gives the appearance of being heavy. That's not an opinion, nor is it wrong to do, it just is what it is. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't like it or that it's bad, just stating a fact.

And what I mean by songwriting is that the songs lack some of the essentials of a great metal song, such as the guitar solo, the bridge, the build up, etc. Instead of these things most of the time they build in "breakdowns". Hope that clears up what I meant.

Perhaps the differences in the vocalists are more apparent to someone who listens to it regularly, but it's pretty clear that the style limits what can be done. It's that macho posturing and screaming like a principle on a delinquent student. (I don't feel tardy!) And you are correct that death metal vocals are also limited and monotonous.

Not all metal is epic songs with solos though. A lot of it is simple riffs with some punch. Simple works for a lot of bands. Downtuning is something so many bands use these days. Not just Metalcore. You get a lot more action on a looser string

I'm sure someone can list metalcore vocalists that sound right-off-the-bat different, but I mena:

Death
Obituary
Entombed
Morbid Angel
Deicide

I feel like all of those bands sound quite different in the vocal department. However, all of those bands are kind of benchmarks for their genre so of course they have been emulated many times over. As I am sure the benchmarks of metalcore have by other metalcore bands. Also, sometimes metalcore bands will employ the most generic of death metal style vocals alongside their screamier vox. So.

I wouldn't call the vocal style "macho posturing" or anything like that(again i'd say that's a characteristic that fits more in with Death Metal), at least that's not the case with all core bands.

For example "Bullet For My Valentine" is a group that mostly uses a more melodic vocal style mixed in with some angry vocals:

BFMV are a very hard band to understand. They blend sooo many styles together.

00 000 0 00 000 000 WOOHOO!!!!

Here's the Wikipedia definition for Metalcore for what it's worth:

"Metalcore is a broad fusion genre of extreme metal and hardcore punk. The name is an amalgam of the names of the two genres, distinguished by its emphasis on breakdowns, which are slow, intense passages that are conducive to moshing."




Also some Metalcore bands like Trivium do actually use guitar solos, so I would say they are very much a metal band.  "(Anthem) We Are The Fire" is a heavy metal song if I ever heard one.