What is "Hard Rock"? Really?

I was having a nice conversation with myself on the ride back from getting my lunch a few moments ago. I was listening to Ensiferum's debut (which is GREAT, BTW) in the truck and commented to myself how much like early Amorphis the album sounds. From there my mind wandered to how metal has an image and subject matter pretty much exclusive to their genre, such as the historic subject matter or the "dungeons and dragons" type fantasy lyrical content. But bands like Quiet Riot or Helix really didn't have that image, so although I refer to those bands (such as QR, Krokus, Twisted Sister) as heavy metal, I don't really think they are, but rather they are hard rock.

So I was curious, what is YOUR definition of hard rock and what makes a metal band a metal band? Everyone will probably see things differently.

I think hardrock is the music that has the same type lyrical content as many glam bands(partying, cheesy one night stands, wild in the streets s*** etc...) but never was as heavy as glam for whatever reason.

In very general terms:

Hard Rock is good-time, party music (Van Halen, Aerosmith, AC/DC, Foreigner)

Heavy Metal is darker, angrier, cathartic rage release type music.

At one time the two terms were interchangeable. A hard rock band was a metal band. It wasn't until the late 80's, early 90's that this big distinction was being made.

In the 70's bands like Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, UFO, Black Sabbath, Van Halen and Kiss were the heavy metal bands of the day. We all called them heavy metal. The magazines called them heavy metal. Few people denied Quiet Riot, Ozzy Osbourne, Saxon, Judas Priest, etc. as heavy metal bands in the 80's and 90's. These bands came to define the term in the early 80's. Now these bands are often described as "classic rock" or "hard rock" because they aren't as heavy as newer bands. It's weird how this happens in this scene.

Do people who like modern jazz deny the old jazz musicians as being such? Do country fans who like modern country think that people like Dolly Parton, Waylon, Merle Haggart and Lorretta Lynn are not real country?

Ult:

Jazz in the 50's was just as splintered as metal is now. You had mainstream jazz (usually older swing era players), hard bop (primarily east coast), cool jazz (primarily west coast), third stream (mixture of classical and jazz) and later soul jazz (usually with a Hammond organ).

Then in the sixties it fractured more with Avant Garde, Free Jazz, Jazz Rock, Fusion, etc.

Nowadays what used to be called "mainstream" is now called "modern jazz"...even though most of the stuff described as modern was recorded 50 years ago. The newest jazz artists are usually referred to as "Contemporary Jazz"...not to be confused with "Smooth Jazz"...which really isn't jazz at all, it's instrumental pop music.

Confused yet?

Hard Rock is more connected to the blues roots and metal is hard rock on steroids.

Troublezone wrote:

Hard Rock is more connected to the blues roots and metal is hard rock on steroids.

Rock and metal pretty much have the exact same building blocks (Pentatonic scale, blues scale), the only difference is the attitude with which you play them.

Quote :

Rock and metal pretty much have the exact same building blocks (Pentatonic scale, blues scale), the only difference is the attitude with which you play them.

Yep, aggression.

detuned wrote:

Ult:

Jazz in the 50's was just as splintered as metal is now. You had mainstream jazz (usually older swing era players), hard bop (primarily east coast), cool jazz (primarily west coast), third stream (mixture of classical and jazz) and later soul jazz (usually with a Hammond organ).

Then in the sixties it fractured more with Avant Garde, Free Jazz, Jazz Rock, Fusion, etc.

Nowadays what used to be called "mainstream" is now called "modern jazz"...even though most of the stuff described as modern was recorded 50 years ago. The newest jazz artists are usually referred to as "Contemporary Jazz"...not to be confused with "Smooth Jazz"...which really isn't jazz at all, it's instrumental pop music.

Confused yet?

Not at all. Same with country or most any other form of music. The thing is, I've never seen jazz fans arguing that the old bands and artists that defined the movement in past ages were ever jazz to begin with. My wife listens to country. I never hear her play Patsy Cline or Hank Williams, but I doubt she would deny they are country artists.

Many NOWBHM bands are no longer considered heavy metal. How can that be when they were the New Wave of British Heavy Metal. And what was the "new wave of heavy metal" if there wasn't a wave of heavy metal bands before it. Was every magazine wrong in the 70's that described Ted Nugent, Black Sabbath and Aerosmith as "heavy metal"? Were the fans of that music wrong? I've been a music fanatic since I was in grade school. I always was a weird lot. When my friends were listening to The Bay City Rollers and the Jackson 5, I was jammin' Double Live Gonzo, Paranoid and Live & Dangerous. People referred to me as "a metal fan". I referred to myself as such.

It's simple history, but people like to revise history as it progresses.

True. Perceptions change over time.

When I first bought Kiss Alive (in 1976), I tried to tell my Stepfather that it was "rock" and he replied "that's not rock, that's HARD ROCK". That was the first time I heard that term.

I don't remember hearing the term heavy metal until the early 80's. (not counting the line in Born To Be Wild)

My in-laws call the music I listen to "acid rock".

SpectreFate wrote:

My in-laws call the music I listen to "acid rock".

Yeah, that term was fairly interchangeable with hard rock in the early 70's.

detuned wrote:

True. Perceptions change over time.

When I first bought Kiss Alive (in 1976), I tried to tell my Stepfather that it was "rock" and he replied "that's not rock, that's HARD ROCK". That was the first time I heard that term.

I don't remember hearing the term heavy metal until the early 80's. (not counting the line in Born To Be Wild)

Really? Didn't you buy Circus, Grooves, Cream, Hit Parader, Sounds, etc.? Man I lived and breathed all those magazines back them. Would walk down to the local drug store and piss off the owner because I was reading the magazines and not buying them. Those magazines used the term "heavy metal" regularly.

I remember when Van Halen 1 came out. Everyone thought it was the heaviest thing they had ever heard. Every musician alive was trying to play "Eruption". Disco was king of the scene. The guitar driven heavy metal of Ted Nugent, Black Sabbath and Zeppelin was taking a back seat to disco. Even bands like Kiss were toning down their sound. Popular rock bands at the time were Styx, Foreigner, Fleetwood Mac or Supertramp. Van Halen 1 helped to resurrect heavy metal in the 70's and helped fuel many of the 80's bands as well.

The madman's band is the greatest gonzoid heavy metal outfit to be found anywhere-
but anywhere-on the whole of our beleaguered planet" -Sounds, 1978

And the sledgehammer that powers the American Heavy Metal Machine is undeniably Aerosmith. -Grooves Magazine, 1978

detuned wrote:

SpectreFate wrote:

My in-laws call the music I listen to "acid rock".

Yeah, that term was fairly interchangeable with hard rock in the early 70's.

Yes, I remember that term too. To me that was always the music of the 60's. The druggy music of Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane, Big Brother and the Holding Company, The Doors, etc. Even 70's bands like Hawkwind were sometimes referred to as "acid rock".

I wasn't much of a magazine reader in the late 70's, I was a book geek...instead of reading Hit Parader I was probably reading Poe, Richard Matheson and Stephen King.

I honestly can't remember when I first heard the term heavy metal, sometime between 1981 & 1983 I'm guessing.

detuned wrote:

I wasn't much of a magazine reader in the late 70's, I was a book geek...instead of reading Hit Parader I was probably reading Poe, Richard Matheson and Stephen King.

I honestly can't remember when I first heard the term heavy metal, sometime between 1981 & 1983 I'm guessing.

The term became a household word in the early 80's, with the popularity of Quiet Riot and Ozzy Osbourne. I can remember discussing what style of music I liked with people back then (high school). I'd often say, "I like heavy metal", to which they would reply, "oh, so you like Ozzy Osbourne." LOL!

I take ULT's side of the argument on this discussion, growing up KISS. Aerosmith, Alice Cooper and even Heart where referred to as heavy metal artists in both magazines and radio. Styx, Reo Speedwagon for example where considered hard rock.

As a kid I read Circus, Creem, Hit parader, and Faces, they all definied alot of these acts as heavy metal including later day bands that followed such as Quiet Riot, Dokken and Motley Crue.

Scratch what I just said...I remember now. The first time I saw the term was the magazine "Heavy Metal"...then I saw the movie when it came out (1981).

detuned wrote:

Scratch what I just said...I remember now. The first time I saw the term was the magazine "Heavy Metal"...then I saw the movie when it came out (1981).

I remember that too. I was offended, "Devo? Devo's not heavy metal!"

To me, I guess it's always been about the presence of the guitars or the lack there of. That's always been my #1 barometer. Also, vocal styles and content can certainly ad to all of that along with drums. But heavy music is heavy music because of the style and presence/priority of the GEETARS!!!

Hard rock to me is always apparent because the guitars aren't quite as heavy or driving the music like they would in straight up heavy metal. However, I don't apply this generality to most of the early pioneers of metal or hard rock as things were so new technology wise. Distortion, electronics, guitars all that stuff.

An interesting contrast to what I just said however would be AC/DC. To me, the 70's were hard rock for them. But with the introduction of Brian Johnson's even harsher and more shrill vocals they were upgraded to heavy metal immediately upon the release of Back In Black (IMO) and ever after. But I guess the guitars and riffs were notably heavier as well with that release. I don't know....

Hard rock and heavy metal is the same difference.

Hard rock to me is just a crunchier, louder form of rock.

^^ Yeah, I always felt this. Metal just takes it up a notch. I'd say if you're looking to compare, early heavier rock bands like Steppenwolf were playing what I would consider to be Hard Rock, while proto-metal bands like Blue Cheer were doing something with more "fuzz" in the guitars, which is what Sabbath ultimately distilled into what became Heavy Metal. Some argue that Zeppelin isn't metal, but I say they took the commercial end (like Aerosmith, KISS, etc), and BS took the less commercial route. I, too, consider most of the 70's stuff to be "hard rock" or "classic rock" by this point now, because most of the late 70's/early 80's NWOBHM stuff really cemented the heavy metal sound quite a bit, took what Sabbath did & really created a specific niche. Still, I think the line between hard rock and metal is very blurred. I NEVER considered AC/DC to be a metal band, I always considered them as a hard rock band. However, they consistently show up in "lists" as a favorite metal band, so I guess the definition is pretty important.

Great thread, thus far. A lot of good, strong arguments here. I too have had this discussion with friends (and myself) from time to time. I agree that peoples perceptions change over time (especially if they were never really knowledgeable on the subject to begin with) and some bands from the 70's that some people have argued for or against them as Heavy Metal/Hard Rock (like Kiss, Thin Lizzy, Scorpions, Aerosmith, or AC/DC) are now called classic rock simply because of the number of years they have been around or a particular song on a station's program playlist is from 20-30 years ago. Also, certain bands are not as "heavy" now as they once were when their careers began (read Def Leppard, Queensryche, Tesla, Motley Crue) and some other bands/ artists have this dichotomy on the same album or within a few albums. A final point is that the term "Metal" has so many offshoots and styles and some bands (at times) straddle the line between categories or live in two (or more) categories at times if their careers last long enough. Peace.

On the contentious issue of the 70's i'm going to side with what Steve Tyler and Joe Perry said in regards to heavy metal......."Sure that's one part of what we do, but there's more to us than just that".

I think that covers not just Aerosmith but Thin Lizzy, Ted Nugent, Sweet, Queen, Led Zeppelin et al in the 70's..........those bands had heavy metal songs but weren't consistantly heavy metal throughout their albums. They had more variety and were pulling from a whole range of musical styles and roots. I think you can call individual songs heavy metal or whatever but to label and box them in as heavy metal bands is unfair to them and a reason why those bands shy away from terms like heavy metal.

I think the 80's bands that grew up listening to those 70's bands took the heavy metal songs/aspect of those bands and went further with it and narrowed it down to mainly heavy songs hence heavy metal being more of a solid term in the 80's.

rattpoison wrote:

On the contentious issue of the 70's i'm going to side with what Steve Tyler and Joe Perry said in regards to heavy metal......."Sure that's one part of what we do, but there's more to us than just that".

I think that covers not just Aerosmith but Thin Lizzy, Ted Nugent, Sweet, Queen, Led Zeppelin et al in the 70's..........those bands had heavy metal songs but weren't consistantly heavy metal throughout their albums. They had more variety and were pulling from a whole range of musical styles and roots. I think you can call individual songs heavy metal or whatever but to label and box them in as heavy metal bands is unfair to them and a reason why those bands shy away from terms like heavy metal.

I think the 80's bands that grew up listening to those 70's bands took the heavy metal songs/aspect of those bands and went further with it and narrowed it down to mainly heavy songs hence heavy metal being more of a solid term in the 80's.

Completely agree with that. If you think of a band like Thin Lizzy...sure, they had their heavy tunes (Emerald, Sha-La-la, etc)...but what about the funk tunes (Johnny The Fox Meets Jimmy The Weed), the soul tunes (Showdown), the folk tunes (Whiskey In The Jar) and so many great ballads.

For groups like Lizzy, Zep, etc., Metal was an "ingredient" of what they were about, but it wasn't the entire meal, there were many courses. Even Sabbath was the same way.

I think it was Judas Priest that finally CEMENTED the direction that heavy metal would progress from during the 80's.