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ultmetal
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|  Subject: 1970's American Heavy Metal...  Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:27 pm | |
| 1970's American Heavy Metal...
I get so tired of defending calling bands like Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Van Halen, Blue Oyster Cult, Angel, Kiss, etc. "heavy metal" on my NLTM site. This thread stems from the Van Halen debate on this board. I've even had people argue with me that bands like Black Sabbath, UFO, Thin Lizzy, Judas Priest and Saxon are not metal bands. SERIOUSLY! It sort of blows my mind how people redefine history.
I have also noted that MOST of the people who try to make this distinction and refuse to accept 70's bands like Van Halen and Aerosmith as heavy metal are in their early 30's or younger. Most people who were actually living during that golden age of music don't seem to make this distiction.
OK, so here's my question. If the above American band's were never heavy metal, who were the American Heavy Metal bands on the 1970's?
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Temple of Blood
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ultmetal
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:34 pm | |
| | Temple of Blood wrote: | | Who says there had to be any? |
Ok, so you are going to say that heavy metal did not exist in American until the 1980's?
All those fans growing up in the 70's who were calling these bands 'heavy metal' were wrong? All the magazines were wrong?
| Quote: | And the sledgehammer that powers the American Heavy Metal Machine is undeniably Aerosmith.
-Grooves Magazine, 1978 |
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krokus
Metal is in my blood
Age : 32
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:34 pm | |
| I understand why many young kids dont call KISS, VAN HALEN etc..heavy metal anymore because it so different to the music they listen today and they think its classic rock or rock. still they should listen to people that know more about metal and his history.
Yes, all those bands you name ULTMETAL are to me 70s HEAVY ROCK/HARD ROCK/HEAVY METAL BANDS that are all part of our metal movement. 70s UFO(mid70s till early 80s), URIAH HEEP, or 70s SCORPIONS are part of our metal movement too even if today people call them classic rock bands (a term i hate because ROCK is ROLLING STONES or DIRE STRAITS to me). |
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Temple of Blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:47 pm | |
| I'm saying off-hand I can't think of any significant metal bands from the US until the late 70s/early 80s.
Most people call those bands "hard rock". I bet the bands themselves don't even call their music heavy metal.
Journalists and "fans" called Korn and Limp Bizkit metal in the early 90s too.
If you like the music does it really matter if it's hard rock or metal? It only describes the style, not the quality of the music.
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mc666
Metal is in my blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:51 pm | |
| i just call bands like Kiss, Van Halen, Blue Oyster Cult, Aerosmith, & Pentagram hard rock. there isn't an American band from the 70's that i would label as heavy metal. i don't care what they were called in the 70's. that's up to the people who grew up in that era.
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ultmetal
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:01 pm | |
| | Temple of Blood wrote: | I'm saying off-hand I can't think of any significant metal bands from the US until the late 70s/early 80s.
Most people call those bands "hard rock". I bet the bands themselves don't even call their music heavy metal.
Journalists and "fans" called Korn and Limp Bizkit metal in the early 90s too.
If you like the music does it really matter if it's hard rock or metal? It only describes the style, not the quality of the music. |
You are just wrong. This is an example of history revisionism.
We did call it hard rock. We did call it heavy metal. Hard rock and heavy metal were THE SAME THING in the 70's.
I can offer up articles from magazines of bands from the 1970's describing their sound as heavy metal. I have quotes from Freddy Mercury talking about their "heavy metal sound". I have quotes from Joe Perry stating similar things. I can offer up quotes from other magazines from the time as well.
There is a quote from Van Halen from '78 that someone posted on the CMR where Eddie states that heavy metal are "old hat". How can it be old hat if it wasn't even around?
"...The reason I think we’re happening is because we are one of the only real bands out there. We’re not punk; we don’t dress weird. We play good music -- or at least I think so. Half of the critics think it’s thud rock bullsh*t They label us heavy metal, old hat. Name me a heavy metal band that’s done what we’ve done. I sound like I’m bragging, but I don’t mean it that way. ...."
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Shiney
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:08 pm | |
| From the fuzzed out bottom heavy noise of MC5 to the caterwaulling shrill cacophony of IGGY & THE STOOGES....there were a lot of bastard mutts running around...all could at some point be laeled metal for one or more reasons...but the times dictated them a moniker of HARD ROCK...so loads of "heavy" bands: STARZ, DICTATORS, KISS, ALICE COOPER, JUDAS PRIEST, SABBATH, ELF, NEW YORK DOLLS, ANGEL, JAPAN, MOUNTAIN, THIN LIZZY, UFO, SCORPIONS...and a lot more...were just labeled whatever the label chart du jour called for...
the same thing happened in the 80's...the 90's....and still occurs today. Sadly.
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Temple of Blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:16 pm | |
| I never said heavy metal wasn't around anywhere on Earth until the late 70s. That quote from EVH merely reinforces what I said that they weren't playing metal and Eddie agrees with me.
My definition of metal music is "dark, powerful, guitar-riff based rock music". That definition doesn't change based on what year it is or what the rock journalists are saying at the time. To the best of my knowledge Sabbath were the first band to make this sound expressed in the majority (but not all) of their songs, so this made them the first metal band (although some bands may have had a song or two that qualifies as metal before this).
So what is your definition?
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Fat Freddy
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:23 pm | |
| Oy. 
Can't we just say "One man's hard rock is another man's heavy metal" and leave it at that??
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HellRaiser
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:24 pm | |
| | Temple of Blood wrote: | I never said heavy metal wasn't around anywhere on Earth until the late 70s. That quote from EVH merely reinforces what I said that they weren't playing metal and Eddie agrees with me.
My definition of metal music is "dark, powerful, guitar-riff based rock music". That definition doesn't change based on what year it is or what the rock journalists are saying at the time. To the best of my knowledge Sabbath were the first band to make this sound expressed in the majority (but not all) of their songs, so this made them the first metal band (although some bands may have had a song or two that qualifies as metal before this).
So what is your definition? |
Personally, (just to name one) I think most of The Alice Cooper band's material fits this definition. |
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Temple of Blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:28 pm | |
| On a similar note, wasn't METALLICA initially described as "power metal" and VOIVOD called themselves "black metal" in one of their album inlays?
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Shawn Of Fire
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:41 pm | |
| | Quote: | | many young kids dont call KISS, VAN HALEN etc..heavy metal anymore because it so different to the music they listen today and they think its classic rock or rock. |
| Quote: | | I bet the bands themselves don't even call their music heavy metal. |
These 2 statements are equally true....
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ultmetal
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:44 pm | |
| | Temple of Blood wrote: | | On a similar note, wasn't METALLICA initially described as "power metal" and VOIVOD called themselves "black metal" in one of their album inlays? |
Yes, Vemon were called "Black Metal" but they don't sound like modern black metal bands. POSSESSED coined the phrase "Death Metal", but they don't sound anything like Cannibal Corpse or Carcass. Doesn't change a thing. Those bands are still all heavy metal, even though they are all sub-genres of that label.
Wickipedia has a good definition of metal and it's origins:
| Quote: | Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960's and early 1970's. With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, heavy, guitar-and-drums-centered sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion and fast guitar solos. All Music Guide states that "of all rock & roll's myriad forms, heavy metal is the most extreme in terms of volume, machismo, and theatricality."
Heavy metal has long had a worldwide following of fans known as "metalheads" or "headbangers". Although early heavy metal bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Deep Purple attracted large audiences, they were often critically reviled at the time, a status common throughout the history of the genre. In the mid-1970s, Judas Priest helped spur the genre's evolution by discarding much of its blues influence. The New Wave of British Heavy Metal followed in a similar vein, introducing a punk rock sensibility and an increasing emphasis on speed. |
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Temple of Blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:46 pm | |
| It left out the part about being dark which is a key component and something that Sabbath was known for.
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krokus
Metal is in my blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:48 pm | |
| | From AOR (JOURNEY, REO SPEEDWAGON, SURVIVOR, FOREIGNER....) till BLACK METAL (MAYHEM, BEHERIT, DARKTHRONE....., its all part of our movement, the metal movement and thats why i call myself a hardrocker or metalhead and i am proud of it. |
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ultmetal
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:53 pm | |
| | Temple of Blood wrote: | | It left out the part about being dark which is a key component and something that Sabbath was known for. |
And who said metal had to be "dark". And how dark did it have to be? Aerosmith were certainly "darker" than much of the mainstream "rock" music that was popular in the 1970's. Compare Aerosmith - Rocks to something from Keith Green, Billy Joel, Elton John, Jackson Brown, Peter Frampton, Todd Rundgren, Linda Ronstad or any other "rock" band from around 1976. Who sounds "darker"?
Personally I think that Wickipedia's definition is perfect. It is exactly how I would describe heavy metal, and it's various offshoots and subgenres.
Here's another one for you:
| Quote: | About.com
Heavy Metal Timeline
From Chad Bowar,
Your Guide to Heavy Metal.
Heavy metal is one of the newer genres of music. Most experts put its beginnings in the late '60s and early '70s. Since that beginning, metal has grown and evolved, spawning a multitude of genres and sub-genres. In the '80s some heavy metal became mainstream, but throughout the years it been mainly an underground phenomenon. Even though most people have heard of Def Leppard or Judas Priest, the huge majority of metal bands are unknown to the mainstream. Here's a heavy metal timeline:
Late 1960's - Early 1970's
The birth of heavy metal. Groups like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple were the first heavy metal bands.
Late 1970's
The rise of the New Wave Of British Heavy Metal (NHOBHM). Bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest become very popular.
1978
Van Halen released their debut album. |
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MetalGuy71
Metal is in my blood
Age : 37
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:55 pm | |
| | Quote: | Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960's and early 1970's. With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, heavy, guitar-and-drums-centered sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion and fast guitar solos. All Music Guide states that "of all rock & roll's myriad forms, heavy metal is the most extreme in terms of volume, machismo, and theatricality."
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That descrition fits Motorhead to a T, however...
| Quote: | | I bet the bands themselves don't even call their music heavy metal |
If you'd ask Lemmy, he'd tell you himself "We play rock and roll". |
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ultmetal
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:01 pm | |
| | MetalGuy71 wrote: | | Quote: | Heavy metal (often referred to simply as metal) is a genre of rock music that developed in the late 1960's and early 1970's. With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, heavy, guitar-and-drums-centered sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion and fast guitar solos. All Music Guide states that "of all rock & roll's myriad forms, heavy metal is the most extreme in terms of volume, machismo, and theatricality."
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That descrition fits Motorhead to a T, however...
| Quote: | | I bet the bands themselves don't even call their music heavy metal |
If you'd ask Lemmy, he'd tell you himself "We play rock and roll". |
Yes he would. It's all rock and roll. No doubt about it. You can class it up and call it neo-classic, progressive metal, but it's still rock and roll at it's base.
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Temple of Blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:02 pm | |
| So is KORN metal and if not, why not?
They're darker than Linda Ronstad and they play heavy power chords on their distorted guitars.
Seems to follow this definition except for the guitar solo part: "With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, heavy, guitar-and-drums-centered sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion and fast guitar solos."
Of course KORN's roots would be a generation or two removed from the blues/psych scene but the point still stands.
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ultmetal
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:13 pm | |
| | Temple of Blood wrote: | So is KORN metal and if not, why not?
They're darker than Linda Ronstad and they play heavy power chords on their distorted guitars.
Seems to follow this definition except for the guitar solo part: "With roots in blues-rock and psychedelic rock, the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, heavy, guitar-and-drums-centered sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion and fast guitar solos."
Of course KORN's roots would be a generation or two removed from the blues/psych scene but the point still stands. |
I hate Korn. They employ influences that I don't like and their music is far outside the bounds of my taste. I've listened to them several times over and just don't get it. The hip-hop influences of nu-metal in particular don't appeal to me. However, I would say that at their base, they are heavy metal. They are a sub-genre, or an offshoot, of heavy metal. Perhaps not one that is popular among fans of "true metal", but an offshoot/sub-genre nonetheless. The one thing that might disqualify them is that they don't employ guitars solos, which is and always has been a key part of heavy metal.
A band like Black Sabbath used a lot of jazz riffs. A band like Rainbow used a lot of classical ideas. A band like Aerosmith used a lot of blues influences. A band like Thin Lizzy had a lot of celtic and folk influences. Ted Nugent had a lot of Chuck Berry influence. The common factor between them was, at their base, they all were hard rock/heavy metal bands.
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Required Fields
Metal is in my blood
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:21 pm | |
| Actually, my guitar teacher is in his 40s. He is a huge fan of Van Halen, and has been since the 70s, and it annoys him when they are labeled "metal". He says he never considered them such, either. So while some did, some didn't.
I'm not saying Van Halen suck or anything (I don't think so at all, so don't think that I'm insulting them). I see them referred to as a "rock" band far more than a "metal" band, even in mainstream music outlets. |
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caniplaywithmadness?
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:25 pm | |
| its a fine line which courses no end of arguements. i don't like thinking about it. just listen and bang your head 
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krokus
Metal is in my blood
Age : 32
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:27 pm | |
| | HEAVY METAL never got the respect it deserved thats why if somebody likes a heavy metal band they call it a rock band or classic rock. But, real heavy metal people are proud calling our bands HEAVY METAL. |
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Eyesore
METAL IS FOREVER
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| | Subject: Re: 1970's American Heavy Metal... Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:37 pm | |
| Metal is the umbrella. Korn is under it.
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